Topic: Seed Saving Circle 2023

[garrett]

Piglet Willie's French Black tomato: "Mid season, regular leaf, indeterminate with Chocolate coloured fruit averaging 2oz (60g). Variety with unknown origin. Probably a strain that former garden blogger Pigletwillie (US) collected during a trip to France a few years ago.

Round dark red fruits with chocolate coloured shoulders.
Juicy flesh with an intense taste. Excellent yields!"

Seeds from a seed swap.

[garrett]

Girl Girl's Weird Thing tomato: "Indeterminate, Regular leaf, Mid season producing Purple oblate fruits with Green stripes averaging 8oz (225g)

Girl Girl’s Weird Thing’ is a beautiful mutation of the ‘Green Zebra’ tomato discovered in Canada by Jessica Hughes around 2010. Jessica’s dog, Girl Girl, found it in a row of ‘Green Zebra’ and brought it to her.
The fruits are oblate, with dark maroon and green stripes, and has softly ribbed shoulders".

Seed from a seed swap.

[garrett]

Reinhard's Purple Sugar tomato: "Very recent variety of Reinhard Kraft, Germany. Small purple-red cherry tomatoes with a sweet aromatic taste. Indeterminate growing plants with regular foliage."

Seeds from a seed swap.

[garrett]

Jaune Flamme tomato: "Beautiful tomato that originated with Norbert Perreira of Helliner, France. Commercialized by Tomato Growers Supply Company in 1997. Early crops of apricot-colored 4 ounce fruits borne on elongated trusses. Excellent fruity flavor with a perfect blend of sweet and tart." Indeterminate, regular leaf.

Seed from Plant World Seeds.

[JanG]

I've just returned from a few days away and it was exciting to come back to the packages of seeds from both Garrett and Markfield Rover. Thank you both for the brilliant packaging you did which makes my job very straightforward.

Thanks also to Garrett for very helpful detailed notes and images. It's really good to have the information, especially information which can't be found online - where you yourself got your seeds from and any experiences you had when growing the variety. Your own pictures also add interest and are very helpful. All will be added to the database before too long.

Thanks also to Ruud for adding some details about the peppers you're contributing. I've had great results from your eastern pepper varieties and, speaking personally, you've enriched my pepper growing considerably.

[ruud]

Good to hear that my peppers are doing so well,i hope these varieties will do there job next growing season.

[JanG]

Selma Zebra: "JC Metze developed this bean from a family bean in the 40-50s and sold the patent to Parks seed which listed the bean in the 70s". The bean was since delisted and lost for decades until some seed was donated to the  Seed Savers Exchange.

Seed from Thompson & Morgan. This is a delicious bean pod. I've read mixed reviews where people say that they need to be picked very young otherwise they are tough, but that was not my experience. I've eaten them when bumpy with beans inside and they have still been tender, full of beany flavour and with a great texture to chomp into.

There seems to be a bit of a mystery around this variety. In 2021 Galina contributed Zelma Zesta to the seed circle and pointed out that ZZ is sometimes named Selma Zesta but that this is a separate variety form Selma Zebra even though superficially they're similar.

However, the story of the origin of both beans, Zelma Zesta/Selma Zesta and Selma Zebra is sometimes given as JC Metze developing the bean etc etc.

I wonder whether anyone knows any more or has grown the two side by side. With your contribution, Garrett, it could be possible to grow both varieties to compare. Certainly the seeds look very similar. If anyone wants a few seeds of Zelma Zesta for comparison, I think I probably have some spare.

[galina]

I believe Selma Zebra to be a Swiss bean.  HDRA Heritage Seed Library was my source a  long time ago and they mentioned the origin as Switzerland.  Which was the reason I chose it, because our family has a Swiss connection.  No longer offered by HSL, as there are now commercial sources.  When I came across S(Z)elma Zesta, I was told about Mr Metze and the bean he had developed in USA.   And this is the information I provided with the seeds shared. 

But I have been puzzled ever since about how come a very similar named bean was apparently developed in the USA.  Or was it taken to USA by a Swiss immigrant and marketed there.  Does Mr Metze also lay claim to Selma Zebra?   I am not aware of that and haven't read that anywhere before today.  The paper quoted below proves that it was bred from the bean Weinländerin and it does not mention Mr Metze.  The paper also notes its origin as Swiss. 

SZ and Zelma Zesta appear to be separate beans, and there are slight differences from memory, although I have not yet grown them side by side.  Lastly, Rattlesnake is another that is quite similar and so is Cousin Oliver's, which I shared with the seed circle some years ago and which may (or may not) be the same as Rattlesnake, but grown side by side CO is much more high yielding.   


https://www.e-periodica.ch/cntmng?pid=bhl-002:2000:110::232

[galina]

This is the Zelma Zesta description also stating that Selma Zebra is a different bean.

I am Rodger Winn, better known as Rodger on the forum here. I am the grower of this bean for Southern Exposure Seeds. My wifes family is the devbeloper of this bean. My wifes Great Uncle Mr JC Metze developed this bean from a family bean in the 40-50s and sold the patent to Parks seed. Those that are members of Seed Savers Exchange can view pictures of this bean on the online catolog. Everyone else I will try to post a picture in the next couple of days. This is not the Selma Zebra, This is Zelma Zesta as Mr JC had it written when he gave me the seed but it was probably Selma Zesta listed in the Parks catolog. I was not able to find it listed in Parks since they did not retain all catologs and Mr Jc Metze told me it was in the 60s early 70s that it was listed. The bean is best used when pods are pencil size. It is very productive and produces reliably in the summer months here in South Carolina, a time when lots of other common beans fail. So it is a good varity for warmer areas good green bean flavor and very productive, can be tough and stringy if not picked when pods are young about pencil thickness and lenght. Rodger

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/2002122/zelma-zesta-selma-zesta-pole-beans

[JanG]

Basque Pepper: "The “Espelette” chili pepper (Piment d'Espelette in French, Ezpeletako biperra in Basque) is a culinary icon of Basque Country with a production area limited to 10 villages nestled in the foothills of the Pyrenees Mountains. The pepper is the first, and currently the only spice in France to carry the European Union’s “PDO” (protected designation of origin) label which both protects its name and regulates its process of production". Peppers not grown in this area are given the common name of Basque Pepper.

Seeds from Real Seeds. This is a very fruity, sweet hot pepper, very low on the scoville scale at just 4,000. Prolific and early, I was picking ripe peppers by late July.

I'm very excited that you've contributed these to the seed circle. I was in Espelette in September and was interested in the whole tradition around growing these peppers in and around that small town in the Pyrenees. Locals decorate their houses with peppers in late summer and have them on stalls to sell to visitors. I was going to buy a  dried pepper or two for seed but found that you could only buy them in rather long strings and as I already had more dried peppers at home than I could ever use, I decided against it and thought I'd try to get seed elsewhere. So, lovely that you've offered it, Garrett, in our very own seed circle!

[JanG]

This is the Zelma Zesta description also stating that Selma Zebra is a different bean.

I am Rodger Winn, better known as Rodger on the forum here. I am the grower of this bean for Southern Exposure Seeds. My wifes family is the devbeloper of this bean. My wifes Great Uncle Mr JC Metze developed this bean from a family bean in the 40-50s and sold the patent to Parks seed. Those that are members of Seed Savers Exchange can view pictures of this bean on the online catolog. Everyone else I will try to post a picture in the next couple of days. This is not the Selma Zebra, This is Zelma Zesta as Mr JC had it written when he gave me the seed but it was probably Selma Zesta listed in the Parks catolog. I was not able to find it listed in Parks since they did not retain all catologs and Mr Jc Metze told me it was in the 60s early 70s that it was listed. The bean is best used when pods are pencil size. It is very productive and produces reliably in the summer months here in South Carolina, a time when lots of other common beans fail. So it is a good varity for warmer areas good green bean flavor and very productive, can be tough and stringy if not picked when pods are young about pencil thickness and lenght. Rodger

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/2002122/zelma-zesta-selma-zesta-pole-beans

Thank you, Galina. That's very clear. Rodger Winn obviously has first hand knowledge of the Zelma/Selma Zesta bean and the history of it. It leaves then the mystery of what origin and history Selma Zebra has. As the names and appearance of the seeds and I think also the purple splashed pods are so similar, you would be forgiven for thinking there's some connection at some stage of development. But what that connection might be seems difficult to establish.

Is it at all possible that the 'family bean' from which Zelma Zesta was developed in the 40s and 50s was in fact Selma Zebra?

 

[galina]

I have avoided coming to this conclusion myself, as I have no proof.  We really can only report on what seems proven and that is that S Zebra was bred from another very old Swiss variety and Z Zesta was 'developed' in the USA.  Whether there is a connection or whether this is a fluke of a coincidence, we may never now.  Intriguingly, there is also Rattlesnake, which I have only ever known as a bean from USA.  There is an outside chance that this may be involved in ZZ too.  Again, we don't know. 

[JanG]

I have avoided coming to this conclusion myself, as I have no proof.  We really can only report on what seems proven and that is that S Zebra was bred from another very old Swiss variety and Z Zesta was 'developed' in the USA.  Whether there is a connection or whether this is a fluke of a coincidence, we may never now.

Interesting. I certainly wasn't wanting to suggest that that link between ZZ and SZ might be anything other than a floating thought.
I haven't come across the Swiss history for Selma Zebra which you have given here. That certainly helps separate the two varieties from one another. Can you elaborate on it at all?

[galina]

Elaborate any more than quoting a paper on Swiss varieties that  contains Selma Zebra as a Swiss variety?  No I can't unfortunately.  And Samen Mauser who retail them have no origin information or breeder info.  In their current catalogue they only list Zebrina, presumably a further development. 

https://www.samen-mauser.ch/index.cfm?content=shop&shopcategory=1090&shoparticle=10047004&spr=de

[JanG]

Thank you. That’s helpful.

[galina]

I haven't come across the Swiss history for Selma Zebra which you have given here. That certainly helps separate the two varieties from one another. Can you elaborate on it at all?

Just looked at the pages of Pro Specie Rara (the Swiss equivalent of the British Heritage Seed Library). It has Selma Zebra in its collection.  This is what they say. 

Die Sorte wurde aus Kreuzungsversuchen der Firma Mauser in den frühen 70er-Jahren selektioniert und ist heute nicht mehr im Handel. Gesprickelte, leicht gebogene Hülsen. Die Sorte ergibt gute Erträge. Die Hülsen eignen sich zum Dörren und Tiefkühlen.

This variety was selected from crossing trials made by seed company Mauser in the early seventies (of the last century) and is today no longer available commercially.  Striped, slightly curved pods.  This variety is productive.  The pods are suitable for drying and freezing.

Which suggests it is a younger variety than Zelma Zesta, which was said to have been developed in the 40s and 50s according to Rodger Winn.  From the Pro Specie Rara entry we have the timeline when Selma Zebra was bred, from the above paper on page 9, we have the parent varieties as Weinländerin and various bush beans and we have the breeder, the Swiss seed company Mauser.   

  https://www.prospecierara.ch/de/pflanzen/sortenfinder/detail.html?tx_psrsortenfinder[showUid]=GE-1075

[JanG]

Thank you, Galina, for persisting and successfully sorting out this muddle. We have two entirely separate histories (unless I suppose the family bean which was developed in US could also have originally come from the Swiss Weinländerin, also I believe known as La Vigneronne) which seem by coincidence to be both very similar and have confusingly similar names.

No wonder bean nomenclature is such a minefield!

[JanG]

I have another French bean, a dwarf one, to add to the circle. It’s Guryn Golden. I found it to be very productive of pencil-podded wax beans which are good to eat at the pod stage. It has white seeds. I received it in a swap from a grower who originally had it from Revival Seeds in US. Its known history seems to be from within US and to go back to the 1980s.
Many of my beans this year were afflicted with rust but this variety remained pleasingly resistant.

[Vetivert]

The Circle parcel from me will be on its way tomorrow.

Due to insuffient crop I've had to cancel the Polish dwarf beans for this year, and the Habanadas produced some weird hollow-looking seeds, so those are out too I'm sorry to say.

But they are replaced by some very nice beans from eastern Kentucky and the southern Ozarks, and a pea and sweet pea.

So the final list from me for this year will be:

Bunching Onion (A. fistulosum)
Shimonita http://kanko.shimonita.jp/journey/en/138/

Dwarf Snap Bean (P. vulgaris)
Cream Six Weeks aka Cream Colored Six Week or Six Week Cream Colored. Not to be confused with Cream Colored Fall Bean.
Woods Mountain Crazy Bean https://seedsavingnetwork.proboards.com/thread/64/woods-mountain-crazy-bean?page=1

Tall Pea (P. sativum)
Alex https://www.gardenorganic.org.uk/seeds/pea-alex

Tomato, Indet. Pear
Ivory Tears https://www.vertiloom.com/en/ivory-tears-seeds.html

Sweet Pepper (C. annum)
Jimmy Nardello https://www.tomatofifou.com/en/produit/jimmy-nardello/

Hot Pepper (C. baccatum)
Sugar Rush Stripey https://www.vertiloom.com/en/sugar-rush-stripey-seeds.html

Summer Squash (C. maxima)
Zapallito de Tronco https://www.gardenorganic.org.uk/seeds/squash-zapallito-de-tronco

Hybrid Sweet Pea (Lathyrus x hammettii)
Enigma https://www.rpsweetpeas.com/product/enigma/

[Vetivert]

I've attached an article from the NSPS Annual in which Keith Hammett gives a brief overview on the origins of 'Enigma'. This is a L. x hammettii sweet pea - an interspecific hybrid of L. odoratus and L. belinensis.