potential loss %?

[sazhig]

Feeling rather stupid today after only noticing this afternoon that my hessayon book has some yield calculators in them ::). Well, at least I can get on with more of my  planting plan though :)

Anyway...getting to my question....Roughly what % of loss do I need to allow for when planning how much to grow? For example using the yield calculator in my Hessayon book I only need about 10 broad bean seeds/plants for our needs, but I am not sure how much space to allow for the crop in case of minor (or indeed major!) disasters. I am assuming that some things will be harder to achieve 'average' yields than others, but how do you all work out how much you will need? A glut wouldn't be the end of the world but it would be nice not to waste seeds that could be used the following year & obviously I want to avoid running out of something when I could've simply planted more. There are only 3 of us (well 2 & 1/2 as ds is only 22 months) so I think we should have plenty of room to grow most of what we need.

Ta

Saz

[sazhig]

[tim]

No quick answer - but, with Broad Beans, as an example, as said elsewhere, do go for succession. Ten plants - in my opinion - will get you nowhere.

I really don't think that you can pin things down to restaurant-type planning.
Do what you can at the time that you feel like it & allow a few extra to replace the runts or failures.

[saddad]

I work on plant as many as I can and if the yields are low there will still be some.... some crops glut others don't, last year was good for sweetcorn (Ovation) so we still have half a freezer drawer of good cobs... to last until this years crop at the end of sept!
;D

[sazhig]

Ten plants - in my opinion - will get you nowhere.

Mmmm - methinks I put put my blond hat on this morning - I have just done my calculations for french beans & it came up with us needing 1 plant ??? Having gone back & re-done the broad beans sums I now realise my maths was *cough* slightly out - we actually need nearer 100 :o. Does anyone have a spare brain I could borrow - I think mine's disappeared somewhere.  :-\

Back to my calculations ::)

Saz

[ACE]

Stop wasting your time on calculations. Fresh seed is better than old, so no point saving some for next year. get fresh seed from this years crop. Bit late for broad beans ain't it?

Your plot will govern how much you can, or cannot grow. Grow the maximum you can get away with and exchange your surplus with a neighbours surplus of something else.

I have never come across this before. ??? I am in the bung-em-in brigade and buy a big freezer

[sandersj89]

I am in the bung-em-in brigade and buy a big freezer

Or 3! (Freezers that is!)

;D

I agree, 10 Broad Beans will give you a meal or two but not enough at one  time t fill your plate. The best guide is to grow what you like to eat, grow enough and a variety of things so you have something 12 months year to look forward to.

Jerry

[sazhig]

... get fresh seed from this years crop.

mmmm. not sure I want anymore couch or nettles (thats all thats in there atm - I only signed the agreement today ;D)

Bit late for broad beans ain't it?

Is it? Hessayon has planting up to the end of May - is that not right then? I was thinking of starting with french beans or other legumes but broad beans just happen to come before them alphabetically so I started looking at them first. I have never grown anything before btw. Everyone I've spoken to says its best to start with potatoes but am I right in thinking that I am too late for them now

Tbh I am really planning a full years crop rotation for next year so I can figure out what to put in the beds we clear this year & avoid repeating veg groups to avoid diseases etc.

I have never come across this before. ??? I am in the bung-em-in brigade and buy a big freezer

Bunging stuff in will probably not help me save money in the long term, which is the ultimate aim of getting this allotment. As we are going to do this completely organically (& as eco-friendly as possible) I am fully prepared to go slowly so we can properly clear the plot of weeds. Planning is therefore something I have the time for at the moment, plus it gives me something to do until we can get hold of a strimmer. ;D

Surely I can't be the only person in the world who plans what they want to grow? I have a VERY long list of veg we like to eat & would therefore like to grow AND what I would consider a fairly large empty patch of soil that needs to be divided up to hold them all. All I am trying to do is work out how much of each will give us enough to last at least some of the year (without us being too sick of only a few types of veg!) and as I have absolutely no idea about what to expect I am trying to find out. Obviously I am looking in the wrong place :(

Saz

[sandersj89]

Hang on there Saz.

Many of use plan what to grow and adjust what we sow to meet that requirement but gardening is a funny business. Local conditions, weather....soil type....etc ....will effect our plans making a book a guide but not the be all and end all.

The Expert gardening series of books are very good.....but I would not rely on them totally. They are written for a mass market and wont suit all situations.

If you want 2 or 3 meals of broad beans per year for 2 people then 10 plants may well suit but you will have to pick and freeze a hand full of pods at a time for them to deliver enough for a meal over a couple of weeks. I would rather plant out 100 plants, actually  I grow closer to 300 plants as I love BB, so I can pick enough for a fresh meal in season and store the rest for later use.

There is no real issue with sowing BB now other than the fact you will get a few problems with black fly, the beans also do not germinate so well when the soil temp is up a bit as it is now. On established plots it is also preferred to sow earlier so they crop earlier allowing time for a follow on crop in the same year such as late leeks or peas.

Spuds are a great crop to start with though as they require a fair bit of effort in perparing the ground, earthing up and harvest. This ground work coupled with the extensive foliage helps suppres weeds. You will still find seed spuds in the garden centers so I would say it is not too late just yet......

As to saving money.....this is a hard one. The cost of seed, compost is undoubtedly cheaper than buying the stuff at the supermarket, it will also taste far better. But you have to add in the cost of our time. I would say I am about 80% self sufficient in fruit and veg for a family of 4. Seed, compost, consumables and the odd extra plus rent probably costs me about £400 to £500 a year. Could I buy cheaper from Tesco's....may be. But I know what my family are eating.

Apply a simple formula to try and work out how much of what to sow and then grow to meet your needs wont work I am afraid. Germination rates, yield, and so on will all have an input.

Hang around here and you will soon get an idea, keep your ears open and keep asking questions and you will soon learn some of the answers but it will take time...dare I say years....to get it right...if ever!!!!

Hope you find this useful.

Jerry

[supersprout]

Hi saz

I've passed many happy commuting hours calculating crop requirements, growing plans (which can include % losses at both germination and planting out stage) sq footage on beds, five year rotation plans, overlaid with tall and short rotations for north and south plus multiple sowings per bed for winter crops (the sums seem to come out different each time ho ho). And I keep a plot spreadsheet to help me plan better next year ::)

To answer your original question, check the germination rates on the seed packs as a rough guide. Or how about taking an overall 10% to start with, and adjust to different rates per crop as you go?

Because for me, a BIG part of the fun is adjusting to the surprises of the growing season. Some seeds don't germinate after 3 or 4 sowings. Someone sends you some you more seeds you just have to grow and they ALL germinate. Young beans perish in late frost. A neighbour gives you 40 tomato plants. Meece/pigeons/slugs chomp through a whole row of produce in a night. You start enjoying young crops, like tiny carrots or broadies in pods, making traditional yield calculations redundant. Some crops give you prodigious yields, and you're giving stuff away. And so on and so on ... every season is another spectacular learning experience!

If you work to a basic plan and find that it over- or under-caters for your family, you can always change it for next year ;) ;D

Edit: I plant broadies all this month, in succession. You can also plant spuds in June, discovered that last year when I got given a whole load by a neighbour, had new potatoes in November :o 8)

[mat]

No, it's not too late for broad beans - Hessayon book is fine.  I am not sowing mine until late May, as I don't want my beans till Spetember...

And I also plan "to the extreme" (a spreadsheet of mine is available via the download page on this site)  I "project manage" at work... and the plot is project managed... it's working so far and it's the only way it will work for me...  No point planting a whole pack of carrot seed, when you don't want thousands of carrots...  I print off a list each week of what I am to sow (functionality not yet on the spreadsheet on this site) if I didn't do this, I wouldn't get anything done, as I would constantly be wondering what I need to do next... and as the week progresses I tick off each item as it is done.  This way I can do a few things in the evenings after work and get through everything...

As to potential loss - depends on the plant, when you sow it, how many predators, etc, etc... sow slightly more than you want and accept a few will be chucked/swapped, the Hessayon book is a fairly good guide.

And remember - enjoy the plot - it's meant to be fun  ;D

mat

[sazhig]

Awww thanks for those lovely lenthly replies re planning guys (& gals? Its so hard to tell online :D). Feeling much less of a geek now :D :D

I think I am panicking a bit about all of this - I havent ordered any seeds yet so am anxious to get some kind of plan in place so I can order before its too late. What with this & the toddler group I am secretary of, plus my application to become an LLL Leader I am somewhat busy & a little stressed atm.  :o

Good to know about the spuds not being too late though - must try & find some - think thats another thread elsewhere!

Jerry - I am curious - what consumables cost that much? I am a big freecycle fan & intend begging & borrowing as much as I can to set & maintain this as well as saving my own seed where possible.

Saz

[supersprout]

Some consumables I've paid real money for (rather than filched) have been very good value, others a complete waste of time.

Good investments: good books, good boots, water butts, good tools, BIG rolls of mesh, fleece, woven black plastic (for paths) and perforated black plastic (for mulch), hazel poles, second hand e-buygumbay greenhouse :-*

Waste of money: Rootrainers (he he I know there are afficionados on the forum, ducks ;)) - toilet rolls for me every time! Panda Stix cloche supports, which break in the middle.

Can feel another thread coming on ... ::)

[Sprout]

a spreadsheet of mine is available via the download page on this site


Mat, where is the 'download page'? I can't seem to find it.

[sandersj89]

Consumables, well it varies year on year to be honest. I do recycle stuff where possible such as timber for beds and juice barrels for water butts but many things cant be sourced in such a way.

If you use chemicals there is a cost to bear for insecticides, pesticides and herbicides. Many organic solutions also seem to be more expensive.

Then there is the seed itself. I keep some of my own seed but do buy most each year. I go to great pains to find the cheapest but quality seeds which means I tend to avoid the big seed companies such as Thompson and Morgan. I think I seed spend this year was about £60 to £80 but that is for a wide range of seeds for both allotment and home garden including ornamentals.

The costs of tools varies year on year as things wear out or break. Again I will spend a little more on some tools as I want quality but I also pick up stuff at car boots sales or in junk shops.

Fleece and environmesh can costs a bit. I have just bought a 10m roll of environmesh and that was £40 or so but will last years. Fleece survives a couple of seasons and I buy it in 250m rolls so it is cheap per meter.

Compost, I make a lot myself but not enough for my needs so maybe buy about 15 bags a years. Grow bags or large pots also add to the cost.

Then I have a greenhouse. This year I have invested in grow lights for a few hundred quid but I have been very impressed with them. The power to run the lights and heater is probably £50 a year.

Rent for my two plots is about £50 a year as well.

I am sure I have missed loads but that can give you an idea.

So the costs can mount up, and I am sure other will do it cheaper than I do. But I am happy with my level of spend. I get a load of food for the family and exercise for me so I don’t need to be a gym member.

HTH

Jerry

(Oh, and I think rootrainers are brilliant!  ;) )

[Jesse]

Saz, I plan a lot for my plot, and the plans also get changed a lot. You possibly won't get your calculations right the first year or few years but through trial and error you'll get a better idea of what and how much you need. Nothing wrong with planning ahead and being organised, good luck with your plans. If you don't have John Seymours book on self sufficiency then that might be an interesting read for you, it's written for smallholders in mind but there's no reason a lot of the information wouldn't be relevant to you, I use the book a lot and it covers everything including harvesting, storing and preserving. And broadbeans can be grown until the end of this month although later started broad beans may/will suffer with blackfly more than the ones started earlier.

[mat]

Awww thanks for those lovely lenthly replies re planning guys (& gals? Its so hard to tell online :D). Feeling much less of a geek now :D :D

Yep, you are no more a geek than I am (and I don't consider me one either!)  And yes, I am definately one of the "gals"  ;D  - my parents lumbered me with initials which sound like a guy - I think my father's revenge for being the third daughter...

[mat]

Mat, where is the 'download page'? I can't seem to find it.

yes, it's not overly easy to find, but seeing as my spreadsheet has been downloaded a surprisingly massive 389 times (it would be nice to have some feedback guys and gals) people have found it  ;D

1) Click on "Allotments 4 All" top left hand site of site.  This returns you to the "first" page (this is not the "home page link"
2) Click on "Allotment Files" on the links on the lefthand side
3) Click on "Allotment Planning"
4) Download Vegetables Allotment Template

It is an Excel file which works on PC's (and apparently with no problems on Apple Macs!)
Modify figures to suit yourselves (spacing and yields)

The download is a zipped file (very small download).  If you require an unzipped version, feel free to email me on lottieholder@tiscali.co.uk (unzipped, it is LARGE - about 2MB)

If anyone has any suggestions for version 2, please let me know
Enjoy  ;D
mat

[sazhig]

...seeing as my spreadsheet has been downloaded a surprisingly massive 389 times (it would be nice to have some feedback guys and gals)

I downloaded it when I first joined here but havent had enough time to get to grips with it yet (& I think dh has infected me with his inability to read instructions  :P) - its complexity scares me a little as I am very much an intermediate excel user, but also from the growing side of things ;D - what have I got myself into  :o I cant even decide whether to put potatoes or legumes in the first bed we dig - how on earth am I going to decide about the rest of the plot!

Saz

[supersprout]

remember it doesn't have to be one bed per crop saz, you can sow what you have ready and fill in gaps or intercrop with quick growing stuff. I think it looks prettier than uniform beds too :)