Problem with responsibility

[Robert_Brenchley]

Is it a statutory site? I don't know what degree of self-management you have, but you need to look at the legal situation. Councils can be very reluctant to act when it's the people running the site who are causing the trouble, as I know from experience; any small community organisation is always vulnerable to that sort as they always have trouble finding people to do jobs, and it's easy to worm your way in. But the purposes of an allotment are laid down by law, and they don't include keeping large livestock. They do include keeping hens, so you're OK on that point. If the worst comes to the worst, a letter to your local MP might well stir them up sufficiently to get some action.

[Robert_Brenchley]

[Baccy Man]

Quoting from doncaster councils website
http://www.doncaster.gov.uk/living_in_doncaster/neighbourhoods/allotments/general_allotment_information.asp

Chickens, ducks, geese and pigeons can be kept by prior arrangement.  A licence must be obtained from the Department of Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) in order to keep goats and pigs.  Some allotment sites are barred from having livestock.  Tenants are also allowed to keep rabbits, ferrets and other small animals.  Dogs and horses are not allowed except under special arrangement.

If they are being kept under special arrangement I would imagine there are strict rules they have to comply with if they are able to escape & damage other peoples plots they are bound to be contravening these rules. I would complain in writing  to both the allotment committee & the council & encourage anyone else who has been affected to do the same. Using 10+ plots to keep horses does not fit in with allotment gardening even if she was breeding them for meat it still wouldn't fit the primary purpose of an allotment is to grow fruit & veg keeping livestock for meat/egg/milk production is always treated as a secondary thing which you would only allocate a small pecentage of your plot to. It would be more appropriate if she housed her horses elsewhere & used the land for fruit/veg production or gave up the plots so 10 other people could get a plot each.

[Jeannine]

I know this sounds a bit tame but it does work. When she zooms in you and starts shouting simply say." I am no longer prepared to talk to you unless you lower your voice"...then walk away. Don't engage with her at all,whatever she says,  if she persists, I would repeat the phrase just once and move well away.

Bullies can only do their nastiness if you rise to it.

If she needs to speak to you she will lower her voice or she will be talking to herself.

If she lowers her voice, then I would speak to her but make it clear you are not on any committee and are not prepared to accept any paperwork from her nor will you accept any shouting or unpleasantness ANYMORE.

Remember you are the victim here, whatever gripe she has got with the committee that is not you!!

She will get the message if you set the rules.

I would then back out and leave the others to get on with it.

If thay are trying to get her out and there is a get out clause they will find it.

In the meantime you might get her off your back.

Just take a big breath and say it and stick to it.

Good Luck,

XX Jeannine

[curly kale]

Thank you for the link to the Doncaster allotments information - it makes very interesting reading because our rents are much more than that and there are a large number of people keeping all kinds of animals on our allotment site including dogs, quite a few horses, quite a few pigs, at least one goat, a donkey, loads of cats as well as chickens, geese, ducks and turkeys.

On the escaping horse front: things have calmed down a bit.  I gave her the letter and did pretty much what Jeannine suggested and after one massive load of swearing and shouting to which she didn't get a response, the horses' owner stomped off and came back the next day in a lot calmer mood. 

She's now been given some of the materials necessary to secure the horses properly and her husband has started work on replacing the existing fence. 

However I'm now finding myself in the middle of what is obviously a very bizarre situation.   I've had a few other allotment tenants (mostly elderly) come to tell me that, while she is a bit of a nightmare, what she is saying about the secretary of the committee IS correct - in that he makes up the rules as he feels like it and, although there is a committee, in reality the secretary runs the allotments like a dictator.  It also seems that he (the secretary) uses his allotments for keeping pigs..... which is probably why he's not using the official rules as a way of getting the horse owners removed.   There has, I'm told, been a request for a Special General Meeting to table a motion of no confidence in the him but the request for the SGM was denied - actually, I was told that it was originally ignored then, when they pushed for it, he denied it because he didn't like the wording.

I've asked for a copy of the Constitution (which I haven't received yet) and nobody has ever seen any minutes of meetings.  I've been told by pretty much everyone I've spoken to that rents were doubled this year to cover the cost of repaying a loan that the secretary has personally taken out to pay for an on-going Court case to get rid of yet another tenant. 

I have ALSO been told that there have been people asking after having allotments to grow veg and being told there are none available which are suitable.

I think the problem here is that most of the allotment holders are either a) very elderly and don't feel able to challenge the secretary OR b) are keeping animals on their allotment so aren't in a position to challenge the secretary.  There aren't that many of us under retirement age who are growing veg.

I didn't want to know all this - all I want to do is grow my veg and raise my chooks in peace but this trouble seems to have come and found me - I just think that the old boys were relieved to be able to tell someone who they felt might be able to do something about it (possibly because I stood up to the horse owner who they are all scared of).  Trouble is that I really, really don't know what to do and to be honest if, what they are all saying about the secretary person is correct,  I'm a bit worried about what could happen if I did do something. 

Sorry about the length of this, typing it all up helps clear my mind - I'm still not sure what to do though and all suggestions will be gratefully received.  One thing I don't want to do is to get the allotments closed down.

[Jeannine]

Ok, reading your last bit, the thing that sticks out is 'I don't want to know all this' so following on from the Horsy lady, say that when the others grab you..very politely simply say, " I really don't want to know about all this",  again it will work if you stick to it. They will try to be negative, you can combat that by not agreeing, simply say words like...Oh Really,  what a shame, I can see that could be stressful, then  excuse yourself..they are looking to get you in their camp,so your allotment will turn into a them against him thing. It sounds very patronising and of course it is but they won't bother you so much if they don't get the verbal feedback they are looking for.Stay on the fence as long as you can, turn up at the meetings of course,but try to stay objective. Not easy but less stressful in the end.

Get a copy of your constitution, ask for it formally in writing, give a stamped envelope and if need be record delivery your letter, But I would stick to the rule on not discussing it 'over the garden fence'.

I am glad Horsey backed down a bit,  I think now you have got her in a better position you will be able to keep her there.

With the others, try to stay as positive as you can and don't be sidetracked by gossip and innuendo, that gets nobody anywhere.

Good Luck again

XX Jeannine

[sarah]

it really sounds like a right old shambles to me.  well done to you for standing up to horsy lady and taking her lip, but i can quite understand why you dont want to get involved withthe comitee. it sounds like its run by a load of little hitlers. but its not right for themto run things this way and if you did feel indignant enough about it to take action then i would lodge a formal complaint with the council; about the committee and about the use of the land. councils are obliged to provide land for allotments. incidently are there any other allotment sites in your area? if there are then perhap you could explain the situation you are  on your site and they might give you priority on any waiting list they have.  sorry its such a drag for you all this and i think i would be tempted to move on.

[davyw1]

Curly, I may get a lot of flack here from all that has posted, i think you and your fellow allotmentee rs should really consider doing some thing about your situation before it gets worse,and it will.
Our site is private having purchased it from the council.
We had an autocratic bully of a chairman/ secretary whose partner was treasurer, there was no committee as he would not allow one. We had a constitution which was placed in the shop for all to read, and a set of rules which you received on paying your rent. The constitution and rules having been written by him.
There were lots of people complaining about the chairmans autocratic bullying attitude, the prices of stuff in the shop, the way he did things and the way the allotments were run. My attitude to the complainants was, if your not happy about then do some thing about it, its not my problem as he does not give me any grief.
Then one day, after an incident in which the police were involved one allotment holder said to the chairman, You do not own these allotments, he replied, Do i not. I then decided that it was time to step in and have words with him to find out what he meant by owning the allotments, he tried to prosaically put me out of the shop,   Bad Move
After he resigned he took the association to a tribunal for back wages for working in the shop. After the police interviewed him for theft he backed down from the tribunal if i we dropped the theft charge, so we did through a solicitor to make sure he could not come back at us. After that was settled i did him for a second charge of theft.
I am now the chairman , while i do not interfere with what the committee decide in the running of the allotments they know that i will not tolerate them working outside of the rules as a means to an end.
I would like to tell you every trick this man tried to retain being chairman and why  but i think i would bore you all

[curly kale]

I've had another weird morning.  While I was lifting my spuds the secretary man came and asked me to be a committee member.  I think he asked me because I stood up to the horsey lady.  I said no thanks.  He also let slip that:

- Two committee members resigned last Saturday

- There now aren't enough committee members to form a quorum - which means they technically can't call a meeting but one has been arranged anyway with the sole item on the agenda being the removal of the horsey lady and her relatives who also have horses on allotments.

- At least two of the remaining three committee members are, I understand, relatives of his.

I asked for a copy of the Constitution and he just looked furtive and changed the subject.  I also mentioned that I'd looked at the Doncaster website and was surprised that our rents are so much higher than stated there, he said that the rents had been agreed at a meeting about a month before I became an allotment tenant.  He then got a bit strange with me and left.

There aren't any other nearby allotments - at least not close enough for me to get there by push bike - if I give up now I'll lose all the veg and fruit I've put in and a local by-law prevents me from keeping chooks in my garden so I'd have to get rid of them. 

I think that for the meanwhile I'm going to keep my head down and just get on with my gardening.   I've got to attend the meeting because of the horses being on my allotment twice but if anything else happens then maybe I'll have a re-think and do something about it.  Not sure what though! 

[emmy1978]

I understand your reluctance to get involved CK. I would join the committee though as if no-one ever does anything then this will just carry on. I must say I have never heard of such a strange set of circumstances anywhere let alone on an allotment plot. It would be funny if it wasn't real!
The man who is running your site sounds very much like the man Davy mentioned and really he needs sorting out. Having a committee made up of 4 people from the same family is just ridiculous. Have you tried NSALG and organisations like that for advice? even if you and another sane person joined you would still be in the minority so the committee needs balancing out.
I really feel for you with this - I love a good campaign and would happily take him on but I know not everyone feels this way and it must be horrible for you to dread going down there.

[cornykev]

As Emmy says join the committee what have you got to lose, are you sure that you are on an allotment Curly because it sounds more like a zoo.  ???   ;D ;D ;D

[Jeannine]

You know I think I would join the committee too, in fact I would encourage a few more to do the same thing. It can't get worse if you do and at least you will know excatly what is going on and get a chance to change things. I would say go for it!!

[curly kale]

Maybe.... I'm a bit reluctant because I'm not the worlds greatest gardener and I don't really have a huge amount of time.  I might have lost my chance though.  I'll do a bit more digging tomorrow - nothing quite like digging to help you think, is there?  I'll also talk to my husband about it as well - although he thinks its all rather silly.

[Trevor_D]

The bottom line is that you may have to take over. Well, someone has to. Don't undertake it lightly: I would spend a lot of time asking around to see if you can build a team. If you can, go for it.

On a technical note, how many signatures are needed on the cheques the committee write? It's usually two (from a designated number of officers); if they all live at the same address, the bank may have an opinion on that.

And if the committee is non-quorate they must summon a general meeting, unless they are allowed to co-opt temporary members until the AGM.

[curly kale]

Goodness, I haven't got a clue about signatures on cheques, etc.  I've only got my first allotment at this site after the previous tenant gave it up when the rent became due.

I bumped in to the secretary? chairman? dictator? (whatever he is) this morning and gave him a copy of the letter I gave to the horsey lady. 

As I happened to be walking along with another allotment holder (who would act as my witness) I also told him I would be prepared to join the committee but only if I get to see ALL documentation - Minutes, Constitution, relevant correspondence, etc, - and also that the Committee then begins to run the Allotments in a proper way - in accordance with the law and none of this personal vendetta stuff.  He virtually ran in the opposite direction.

I probably won't hear from him again. 

[Tin Shed]

If you are really lucky he will just keep on running!!!! Hopefully the fact that you are showing a real interest in the committee/documentation etc , will really worry him especially if you can get a few more people interested and provide a united front.

[emmy1978]

Go Curly Kale!

[louise stella]

There are some deeper issues here!

Mainly that any "Organisation" that has a committe - especially one that handles funds, has to be able to meet certain criteria.  I am Treasure of a PTA - and have to be transparent in all my transactions.  My accounts are open to yearly audits and as we are also a registered charity the Charities Commission also request a copy yearly!  My bank accounts are also scrutinised and open to anybody who wishes to see them.  We have three signatories and any two have to sign any cheques.

We hold regular committe meetings and have to have at least three committee members to constitute a quorum.  No decisions can be made with less people present and we usually make no major ones without even more than that being present!

I would demand as a tenant to see the constitution and a copy of last years accounts!!!!!

Get advice and if all else fails - get involved - people like this cannot be allowed to run little empires like that!

Good luck!  be strong!

Louise
XX

[curly kale]

It seems to me that to get to this mess the situation has been going on for years on a slow downward spiral.   Much as many of the members dislike what has been going on, it IS what they are used to and I'm not sure how easily I will be accepted by the many older members.  I am:  a) a woman, b) a Londoner living in Yorkshire and c) new to these allotments - so I think that its going to be a question of taking baby steps to make the changes which are obviously really necessary. 

Well, much as he looked worried at the idea of me wanting to see all the documentation (which I thought might put him off me being a Committee Member), for some reason he has started waiting for me in the mornings to discuss allotment business.   Apparently there is a court case going on which I knew nothing about!  My husband's theory is that he knows its all gotten out of hand and sees me as being the one way of getting back on track without losing too much 'face'.    We shall see.   

I did mention that I would still like to see all the paperwork.....

[Robert_Brenchley]

People like that often are in over thier heads. If they were more capable, they'd find something better to do with themselves! You have to be pretty pathetic if the climax of your life is going to be dominating an allotment association.

[allaboutliverpool]

Why not try the Citizen's Advice Bureau to find a Solicitor who specialises in this sort of thing?

If there are a dozen angry plotholders you could share the cost.

Failing that, I would put a fence round my plot!