Do you think the government listens ?

[sawfish]

I really doubt any sensible working class person would ever vote the Tories back in. I remember Maggies fascist regime well.

[sawfish]

[gordonsveg]

The trouble with this country is we are too willing to take everything any government throws at us re; taxes ,rights or using the streets in safety,
   We just lay down and say dont kick too hard.

[redimp]

I really doubt any sensible working class person would ever vote the Tories back in. I remember Maggies fascist regime well.

I totally agree with that apart from the working class bit should be removed.  Only imbeciles with short memories will vote the Tories back in!  It has nothing to with class (oh, and my Dad is a tory District Councillor :-[)

[betula]

For the first time in my life I do not know who to vote for.Certainly not Tory.

The lets pretend to be labour party has certainly lost its way. :-\

[kt.]

I think they talk a good talk but thats about all.  If it is something that affects their own backyard they are the first to oppose it and palm it off elsewhere.  If they are to disagree with a vote in Parliament,  they can be "away on other duties" so they miss it by convenience.  Overall most are out to line their own pockets and will agree with most things providing it won't affect them.  When did you last hear of councils putting immigrants in affluent areas nextdoor to MPs houses or on their estates.....

[grawrc]

Sounds like what we need is a parliamentary reform bill? Shift the goal posts and make them accountable. Think beyond the party system. Review what is in place , cut the last 700 years and start again?

[redimp]

I have posted what I think it is the ideal system before.  More democratic, makes politicians more answerable but still keeps MPs that people can attach themselves too rather than a list system which means all MPs are central - and also prevents the danger of hate parties gaining a foothold (sorry Mr Smith).  I shall try and find my most recent post on this matter and reference it here.

...I think that the apathy is a result of the death of ideology - both the main two parties are both similar shades of grey and with Nick Clegg as leader of the Lib Dems, he is turning that party exactly the same.  The electoral system is desperately in need of change, not tinkering with internet and postal voting.  Voters need to think they are in control and that they can change things.  There has to be some form of PR - my preferred choice would be a constituency based preference voting system - larger constituencies based around 5-6 of the old constituencies with 5-6 MPs each.  Then the final outcome would better reflect voting patterns, but the single issue dangerous parties like the BNP/Respect would still find it difficult to make a breakthrough.  It would also more than likely give everybody a preferred MP.  If you are a Tory in a solid Labour constituency or Labour in solid Tory constituency, who do you go to if you have a problem?

[sawfish]

Thats true redclanger but at the end of the day it is the working classes who suffer most under tory rule.

[Flunky]

I think I may shot for posting this, i hope not beacuse no offence is intended to anyone.

i dont understand this working, middle, upper class. I dont consider myself in any of those groups. I go to work I earn money I go out and i spend it. I think we should move away from putting ourselves in boxes. It only serves to alienate us.

At the start i didnt want this thread to get into Tory this Labour that. They are ALL the same. The point is they dont listen. No of them. Is it because we dont shout lound enough ? The french wont have it so why do we ? I am not advocating using french methods but crikey they DO get listened to.

I totally disagree with someone being called an imbecile for voting for one particular party. We all have different opions and some policies may appeal to one but not the other.

Amazin, If Iwas made redundant or was bankrupt I would still go to work. Even if it was working in a place I hated. I have bills to pay and would never ever not be in work. He had back problems caused by a fall. He walked ok. He talked ok. The guy was a sponger on 18K a year. I know that if people are ill they need all the help they need. But come on 18K pa. Thats wrong. Now just to make myself absolutely clear. I know people who are genuinely ill need help and they should get everything they need. But some people extract the unrine.

[Barnowl]

I really doubt any sensible working class person would ever vote the Tories back in. I remember Maggies fascist regime well.

Fascism is a government, faction, movement, or political philosophy that raises nationalism, and frequently race, above the individual and is characterized by a centralized autocratic state governed by a dictatorial head, stringent organization of the economy and society, and aggressive repression of opposition [my underlining].

I'd say Labour are half way there  :)  (and remember the little old man being muscled out of the conference a couple of years ago?)

More to the point, why has the word 'initiative' come to mean: form a lot of (expensive) committees, talk a lot of hot air, wait for years for an inconclusive report and avoid actually doing anything constructive - in fact do anything but use some initiative?

They need to do more than listen...

[Mr Smith]

Redclanger,
                     You and your other left wing mates want to get switched on, I've just had a day out in Leicester and folk are in the pub at 1000 it's a  joke, to much money is being payed out in social security that is why they are sat in a pub at 1000 on a Monday morning, personally I would stop the lot, kick the *fatherless children* back down the pit and dig some fringg cheap coal ;)

[redimp]

And in penalising the few who do take the piss, you will do significant and lasting harm to the many who find themselves unable to work but who are doing their best to sort it out.  When protecting the many, you have to also protect a few bad apples.  And why do people obsess with a bit of DSS fraud when tax fraud, evasion and avoidance costs billions - oh, yeah, the Mail ignores fraud by its friends and concentrates on vilifying the weak and unfortunate and people like you swallow the tripe unquestioningly!.  I was doing online newspapers at school today, The Daily Mail had a typical race hate headline featuring a story that all the other 'serious' newspapers did not deem important enough to publish - including the sensible Tory ones who do not have the sole purpose of peddling race and other minority hate - which you yourself have raised previously in the Watershed.  Personally, it is right wingers who blame the weak and minorities for societies ill that I would drop down the pit.  I would then cap it with concrete.

[OllieC]

folk are in the pub at 1000

That's a good age to be in the pub - obviously it keeps 'em young!  ;D

[posie]

personally I would stop the lot, kick the *fatherless children* back down the pit and dig some fringg cheap coal ;)

How about instead of targeting the *fatherless children*, you try going for the so called fathers who walk away from their responsibilities without a care in the world, whilst the mothers struggle to make ends meet.  >:(

[Amazin]

Amazin, If Iwas made redundant or was bankrupt I would still go to work. Even if it was working in a place I hated. I have bills to pay and would never ever not be in work.

Good for you, that's the spirit. I asked about the man's circumstances because you didn't provide any further details.

He had back problems caused by a fall. He walked ok. He talked ok. The guy was a sponger on 18K a year. I know that if people are ill they need all the help they need. But come on 18K pa. Thats wrong. Now just to make myself absolutely clear. I know people who are genuinely ill need help and they should get everything they need. But some people extract the unrine.

Two things here: firstly, since you believe people who are genuinely ill need help and they should get everything they need - but not £18,000,  ??? perhaps, since your expertise lies in financial services, you'd care to come up with an appropriate figure.

And secondly, are you medically qualified to diagnose this person's condition?

[OllieC]

I also work in financial services - in fact I'm Director of a Mortgage Brokerage, and I have yet to meet someone on benefits taking home this kind of pay... maybe there's a high net doley area that I'm not getting access to? Perhaps it's grim down South!

[Flunky]

Amazin, Its not my or your job to assess whats required as my needs are different to yours as yours are different to the person next to you. I know people who work their backsides off for less than 18k a year and have children. Nope I am not medically qualified beyond my cubscout 1st aid badge. I am however exceptional at spotting a pi55taker. You seem to be missing the point. He is just an example. True case, but an example. My point was, why does ANYONE get such a vast amount of money for doing nothing ? surely the money could be better spent. Rehabilitation ? Retraining ? If somone in a wheel chair can be an Olympian then these dossers can answer a phone or do some photocopying or become a barrister.

Redclanger, Tax evasion is just as bad as DSS fraud who said it was'nt ? nothing wrong with tax avoidance as I said earlier.

Posie by definition they are then fatherless children. Anyone who walks away from that repsonsibility should be dealt with. Not going into detail, i have raised 2 girls who are not "biologically" mine. You are absolutely right they are the ones who should be targeted not the kids.

OllieC, I hope I am in the pub at 1000. LOL. Mr Smith come Friday I am in the pub at 10.00am big breakfeast then a day on the jar. I have earned it last month. ;D

[Flunky]

I also work in financial services - in fact I'm Director of a Mortgage Brokerage, and I have yet to meet someone on benefits taking home this kind of pay... maybe there's a high net doley area that I'm not getting access to? Perhaps it's grim down South!

Between him and his partner he had loads of kids dont remember number. Just remember the factfind. Was self cert and needed to do financial planner to confirm affordability from our point of view. Guy brought in bank statements and it was confirmed through those approx £1500 pcm. Bought a property in Holt. North Norfolk. Very near Chelsea on Sea. Easy when you take tax credits, working family, sick, etc etc. etc. I now concentrate on life products. Same thing factfind done and over the years I have seen more and more being given through the benefits system. You must of seen an increase ? maybe I am just more aware than I was a while ago.

[OllieC]

Good move on the life buddy, tis shite on the mortgage front at the moment...

I spent most of my summers as a student near Holt, working on a fruit farm... You know the place well? That's where, week in, week out, we advertised for fruit pickers, and couldn't get anyone local to do it.... Now they have Eastern Europeans & everyone says "they're taking our jobs"...

[Flunky]

I know it very well. Live about 30 miles away. I covered there and round north norfolk. You are right, Life is soooooo much easier. That is a very common thing round my parts lots of agriculture but no one wants to do it. They get too much from the Gov. LOL.