Community Payback

[Unwashed]

Do you get Community Payback on your site?

Since Newbury Town Council changed their allotment rules to prevent the tenants from maintaining the hedge and ditch we've had Community Payback on site to do this work.  The Council never asked us whether we were comfortable with this, and they don't tell us when they're about.

They were on site this week and they trampled the back of my plot.  Had I been on site I would have told them to get off, but I find the whole situation very unsettling as I'm not over-happy at the thought of telling a bunch of potentially dangerous criminals to clear off.  When I complained my council were "outraged at my libellous accusation", so you can see they're not particuarly sensitive to the issues.

Obviously the hedge and ditch need doing, but before the ban I used to do it - I enjoy doing it.  I've been to two council meetings asking the council specifically to allow the allotment society to do the work, but they dismiss it out of hand.

What do you reckon?  Is Community Payback appropriate on site?

[Unwashed]

[Robert_Brenchley]

I don't see why not. A good friend of mine is a chaplain at Winson Green, and confirms everything I've heard, that the great majority of those in prison have learning disabilities or mental health problems, and need help which they won't get where they are. Community Payback sounds more positive, and I think it should be encouraged.

[kt.]

We have had people on community service working on our site in the past with no problems.  When they are on site there is always one committee member around to keep them right on jobs to do and where to go.  We get the odd lazy one but most do like it.  Never had the problems you mention though.  We also give them brews through the day to keep them going.  

[lincsyokel2]

You will have to read the tenancy agreement .

When you rent a property, you have a legal right to free and unimpeded use, and the landlord, or his agents, have no right to access the rented property without your permission, and have to give you notice to enter it, and they can only do that to inspect it and do essential maintenance.

Its been shown the same applies to parking places that come with rented flats - in some cases clampers and landlords have been jointly sued because the clamper clamped someone parked in there own parking place, which was ruled illegal entry to the rented property, and  damages were recovered.

SO i am guessing you could argue that you need notice before they can enter your rented land, and you are entitled to damages if they trample anything.  Furthermore, you can also argue that by allowing convicted burglars on the site, the council are exposing you to potential loss, as they are indicating the the thieves possible places to rob, such as your allotment shed, and they are therefore failing in there duty of care to protect your property. If someone gets there shed robbed, and you can show that person was on the site previously as Community Payback, then I think you have them by the proverbials.

Further legal advice is needed to confirm this.

[tonybloke]

Furthermore, you can also argue that by allowing convicted burglars on the site,

nothing like a bit of prejudice to spoil a thread, is there??
the folk on community payback ain't necessarily convicted burglars, they could just as easily be folk who didn't pay a parking fine, or neglected to get a tele licence!!

our association have them do site clearance etc for us,  it's a superb scheme for help on allotments

[lincsyokel2]

Furthermore, you can also argue that by allowing convicted burglars on the site,

nothing like a bit of prejudice to spoil a thread, is there??
the folk on community payback ain't necessarily convicted burglars, they could just as easily be folk who didn't pay a parking fine, or neglected to get a tele licence!!

our association have them do site clearance etc for us,  it's a superb scheme for help on allotments

SO you can g';tee no person ever convicted of theft will ever do Community Payback? Thats a pretty bold assertion to make, hope you have the  evidence to back it up, since im more likely to be right than you on this, just purely on statistical grounds.  The average reoffending rate for burglars is 70%, according to Home Office statistics.

[Unwashed]

Tony, I appreciate your point, especially as it's backed up with good experience of the scheme, but I can't find any details of the offender screening that means the crims are definitely not dangerous, hence a legitimate concern that they are potentially dangerous.

lincsyokel2, I complained for the reasons you gave.  I wasn't asked for permission so they we trespassing, and I've charged the council £2.50 for my time to repair the damage and I'll deduct it from my bill.  They didn't like that.

[tonybloke]

I am the person in our association who liases with the probation service for the community payback scheme on our allotments. we can (and do) get the probation service organiser to screen the workers.
there ain't that many violent burglars who get community service, anyway!! they are mostly 'minor offences', like breaching a previous order, or even minor motoring offences!!, non-payment of fines, parking tickets, other similar offences.

[STEVEB]

N.I.M.B.Y.S  ;)

[lincsyokel2]

N.I.M.B.Y.S  ;)

no, N.I.A.B.Y.

Not In Anyones Back yard.

[caroline7758]

I would have loved to have community payback people to cut the hedge for me- with correct supervision. The only time I've seen them on our plots all they did was cut back brambles- not even dig them out, so they all grew back again. ::)

[Digeroo]

A lot of otherwise nice people get caught out doing something wrong.  I used to work for a charity who had teams doing work.  The type of work that was involved depended on the type of person allocated.   Anyone at all dubious was put into groups working on footpaths miles from anywhere.  Though these were also popular with people who did not want to be seen doing community service.

Someone I know got a community order for having a fight in a pub.  He did not start it but did join in.  Most of the time a very reasonable guy.

Another organisation had footballers who had been caught driving under the influence teaching football to difficult youngsters. 

So all you speeders, drinkers, etc etc are you all so innocent you never do anything wrong?   

[Hector]

I don't see why not. A good friend of mine is a chaplain at Winson Green, and confirms everything I've heard, that the great majority of those in prison have learning disabilities or mental health problems, and need help which they won't get where they are. Community Payback sounds more positive, and I think it should be encouraged.

Totally and utterly agree, I think you all would be horrified by how easy it is for vulnerable people to get led into situations where they get a conviction. There are shedloads of folk who I would happily have in my own garden who have a conviction. And I am VERY VERY cautious.

edited to add: In saying tht, bad your plot trampled Unwashed...whoever was supervising should have made sure folk knew what to do/not to do

[tonybloke]

I would have loved to have community payback people to cut the hedge for me- with correct supervision. The only time I've seen them on our plots all they did was cut back brambles- not even dig them out, so they all grew back again. ::)

that was down to whoever organised the work, not sorting it out properly!! when I arrange the work for the community payback to do, I arranged a 'work plan', or schedule of work to be done on each site. ;)

[caroline7758]

I would have loved to have community payback people to cut the hedge for me- with correct supervision. The only time I've seen them on our plots all they did was cut back brambles- not even dig them out, so they all grew back again. ::)

that was down to whoever organised the work, not sorting it out properly!! when I arrange the work for the community payback to do, I arranged a 'work plan', or schedule of work to be done on each site. ;)

That's what I meant by "with correct supervision".

[Mr Smith]

Everyone in live deserves a second chance apart from the likes of shits like 'Huntly', just give the lads a chance, :)

[OllieC]

the landlord, or his agents, have no right to access the rented property without your permission

This is, of course, complete nonsense. As a landlord I just have to give reasonable notice. If it's for routine maintenance, this is normally taken to be 24 hours but I just need to tell them & it can be less. I don't need to ask their permission. If there's a flood or fire, I have to shout "I'm coming in" before entering. I once rescued a drunk tenant from a fire that he had started in a poperty we own. Are you saying I should have asked him for permission first?! He had changed the locks so I charged him for a new door too.

And good to see so many people on here saying they deserve a second chance (with supervision) - quite right!

[Trevor_D]

That depends on your lease, Ollie. Ours states quite clearly that - provided we keep to the terms of our lease - our landlords, the local Church Charity, have no rights whatever to enter the site. The chairman of the Trustees does an annual "walk-about", so that he can report back to them. I have to invite him: he can't just turn up.

Other people's leases might very well be worded differently, of course.

[Fork]

Wish someone on community payback would help us with our hedge cutting...it really is a pain every year.! would happily keep them in bacon butties and tea!!

Maybe we arent considered for this type of thing because we only pay a peppercorn rent??

[OllieC]

You can't change the law with a contract, even if both parties want to. You certainly can't do away with  a statutory right! Not sure about your case, but I have seen many tenancy agreements that have nonsense in them - some from large companies.

This sight: http://www.simplyrent.co.uk/tntfaq.htm/#Q10 says the same as I have been told by our solicitors.

"Landlords have a statutory right of entry to the property for inspection and repairs under the Rent Act 1977 and the Housing Act 1988. The Landlord also has a right of entry under the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985 if the Landlord is obliged by Section 11 of that Act to carry out essential repairs. The Landlord's right to make reasonable visits to check the condition of the property is also normally included in the agreement with the Tenant.
The Landlord should always take care not to interfere with the Tenant's right to peaceably occupy the premises without interference, and should give notice of his/her intention to enter the property. Normally the Landlord should give you at least 24 hours notice, and only call at a reasonable time during the day or evening."