Rhubarb spray for mites?

[sunloving]

I have one of my ladies sitting on eggs at the moment and despite spot on treatment, pyrethroid based sprays and bleach in the coop scrub she still has a small number of mites, the coop is pretty clean and the other girls are fine.

I'm just cooking up a batch of rhubarb spray for the roses and was wondering if anyone has tried it on mites?  Or anything else i might try.

Poor girl has 7 days to go and then im moving them all to a new coop to keep her and the chick away from the other girls.
x sunloving

[sunloving]

[Melbourne12]

You can kill mites with oxalic acid.  Beekeepers use it.  But you'd need to treat the coop without any chickens or eggs in it.  You certainly shouldn't use it directly on a hen.

But any homemade rhubarb concoction won't be anything like the strength you'd need.

(I need to add that I checked last year with the Chemicals Regulation Directorate, who confirmed that the use of ANY home-made pesticides is now a criminal offence.)

[Obelixx]

What?  So we can't even use garlic sprays as recommended on GW? 

They'll be telling us next that we can't make our own nettle or comfrey teas for foliar feeds.

Bah humbug!   Then again, just who is going to know what we do in our own gardens?  Chemical police?

[dtw]

This probably refers to chemical production, not 'organic' production.

[Digeroo]

Can you ask the Chemicals regulation Directorate the specitic reference to the act of parliment which makes home made pesticides illegal so we can read the actual.

It seems stupid to ban everything sensible, and still allow aminopyralid to wreak havoc on the weedkiller front.

[Robert_Brenchley]

I believe home-made insecicides are illegal, and have been for many years. Never mind, you can get oxalic acid cheaply on eBay. It's used to clean decking, so why not hen houses? If it kills mites along the way, that's merely incidental.

[sunloving]

Well its worth a try , thanks for replies.
x sunloving

[goodlife]

Sunloving..have you got any Diatomaceuous Earth powder? You can use that for whole coop and dust the chickens too with it.
I used it in my chicken shed and in nest boxes all the time, all year round and mite problems have not been surfaced anymore..sprinkle it where you girls have their dust bath too.
It doesn't harm envinronment..it is non-chemical action powder so there is not issue for it getting into food chain.
You can buy it cheaply from Ebay. There is DE sold under brand names..but they are muuch more expensive.

If you dust your broody generously with it..some it will get into chicks too (thats if your broody don't allow handling of the chick for dusting).

[Melbourne12]

Can you ask the Chemicals regulation Directorate the specitic reference to the act of parliment which makes home made pesticides illegal so we can read the actual.

It seems stupid to ban everything sensible, and still allow aminopyralid to wreak havoc on the weedkiller front.

The relevant correspondence is copied below:

Posted At: Monday, August 29, 2011 12:12 PM
Posted To: Inform
Conversation: Legality of home made pesticides
Subject: Legality of home made pesticides

Good afternoon,

I moderate one of the many gardening forums (allotments4all.co.uk), and a question has arisen over the legality of "home brew" pesticides.  Many people use infusions of, for example, rhubarb leaves against various insect pests.  Some people are concerned that, because such folk remedies are unlicensed, they are therefore illegal.

We are not here talking about attempts to create banned pesticides in the garden shed, but simply traditional formulations. Neither is there any question of offering such products for sale.

I'd be most grateful if you could clear this matter up for us.  Any advice on the subject would be most helpful.

Regards

From: Inform <Pesticides@hse.gsi.gov.uk>
To: (Melbourne12)
Sent: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 15:12
Subject: RE: Legality of home made pesticides

Dear ....

Thank you for your enquiry.  Strictly speaking, the use of home-made insecticides, herbicides and other pesticides – the term "pesticides" is used in legislation as an umbrella term to cover any substance, preparation or organism prepared or used for destroying any pest (where pest means any organism harmful to plants or to wood or other plant products, or any undesired plant; or any harmful creature) - would be covered by the Control of Pesticides Regulations 1986 which apply not only to recognised pesticides but also to substances, preparations or organisms prepared or used as if they were pesticides.  These are UK regulations that require that all pesticides must have been granted approval by the relevant Government ministers before they can be legally advertised, sold, supplied, stored or used so the use of home-made pesticides would represent the use of unapproved pesticides and this would be an offence under the Regulations.

We are aware that some gardeners and allotment users do make their own pesticides from household chemicals or other substances to control particular pests; for example, using rhubarb leaves as in your example, or using coffee or salt to repel or kill slugs.  However, we cannot condone or encourage the use of such pesticides because such use is likely to result in the user committing an offence under the regulations even though such offences are unlikely to be prosecuted; it is usually difficult to obtain appropriate evidence and it is not generally in the public interest to do so.  This does not mean that appropriate enforcement action, including prosecution, would not take place - while some of the home-made pesticides that gardeners have produced over the years are unlikely to have health or safety implications, others most definitely could - and where evidence was obtained that the use of such substances had led to serious environmental or health consequences or where "home-made" pesticides were being sold or supplied to third parties, this would potentially result in prosecution for a criminal offence.

Similarly, we would not encourage the publication of information relating to the ingredients of home-made pesticides and/or methods of manufacture or use, although we have no actual powers to prohibit this.  However, the publication of such information could be interpreted as encouraging the use of unapproved pesticides, and this could, potentially, result in the person publishing the information also committing an offence.  We would therefore hope that anyone considering publishing information in this area will avoid references to specific home-made pesticides or their ingredients and methods of manufacture and use.

By comparison, the use of home-made fertilisers such as compost or comfrey tea are not directly covered by any legislation, although we would probably not recommend that anyone try and manufacture their own "commercial" NPK fertilisers at home.

I hope that this answers your questions but if you would like clarification or further information on any point, please let me know.

Yours sincerely,

Ian Rowland

Communications Branch
Chemicals Regulation Directorate
Health and Safety Executive
Mallard House
Kings Pool
3 Peasholme Green
York
YO1 7PX

Tel: (+44) (0)1904 455775
Fax: (+44) (0)1904 455763
Email: pesticides@hse.gsi.gov.uk

Posted At: Thursday, September 01, 2011 11:55 AM
Posted To: Ian
Conversation: Legality of home made pesticides
Subject: Re: Legality of home made pesticides

Dear Mr Rowland,

Thank you very much for your comprehensive reply.

Just one small clarification, if I may: you say in your first paragraph, "the use of home-made pesticides would represent the use of unapproved pesticides and this would be an offence under the Regulation"  and in your second, "such use is likely to result in the user committing an offence under the regulations".

I have browsed the regulations, and I've seen the derogation for the use of foodstuffs as an attractant or repellant, such as jam in wasp traps or peanut butter in mousetraps - but presumably not beer in slug traps, where the attractant is also the biocide.

I also understand that pursuing minor offences may not be in the public interest, and that there may be other offences to do with consequential environmental or personal damage.  But as far as the use of unapproved pesticides is concerned, do I take it that it is always in contravention of the regulations, no ifs, no buts?  In other words, it's what lawyers refer to as an absolute offence?  Or is there some doubt, depending on circumstances?

Thanks for your help

Regards

From: Inform <Pesticides@hse.gsi.gov.uk>
To: (Melbourne12)
Sent: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 14:25
Subject: RE: Legality of home made pesticides

Dear ....

Thank you for your enquiry.  The use of an unapproved pesticide is an absolute offence in that the pesticide is either approved or it is not, but it is only the courts that can determine whether or not an offence has been committed; if someone is charged with or prosecuted for using an unapproved pesticide; it is only if they are found guilty that they would be deemed to have committed the offence.  Since I was describing the general position, I had to take account of the fact that there might be reasons why a court would not find someone guilty in particular circumstances.

I hope that this answers your questions but if you would like clarification or further information on any point, please let me know.

Yours sincerely,

Ian Rowland

Communications Branch
Chemicals Regulation Directorate
Health and Safety Executive
Mallard House
Kings Pool
3 Peasholme Green
York
YO1 7PX

Tel: (+44) (0)1904 455775
Fax: (+44) (0)1904 455763
Email: pesticides@hse.gsi.gov.uk

As a postscript, Mr Rowland makes one small omission in his second reply.  It would be up to the Crown Prosecution Service, not the courts, to decide whether to prosecute.

I don't want to make too big a thing of this, since the letter from Mr Rowland makes it clear that you're unlikely to be prosecuted for spraying rhubarb tea or washing up liquid.  But technically you ARE committing an offence.

[sunloving]

Really quite ridiculous as i can buy a shed load of strong oxalic acid power from the internet and nuke everywhere but i cant cook up some rhubarb leave spray.

Shame on them.

Appreciate that you have to be seen to apply the law.
But it will be a great shame that the sharing of effective and organic treatments for pests between interested gardeners whichi is a primary function of this website will now be suppressed. another victory for the chemical companies backed by government

Ill be making up some more spray later today, the police can bearly come out every time the druggys on our street break in to someone elses house let alone come over to investigate my rhubarb tea.

sunloving

[saddad]

They might move on your "tea" as law-abiding citizens make an easy target...  :-X

[goodlife]

Sunloving..I would be very careful what 'strenght' of concoction you are attempting to use. Although oxalic acid does occur naturally in plants..it is very potent stuff, particularly in its chrystalized form (powder). I use it (illegally.. ::)) for treating varroa mites in my bees (like so many other beekeepers) but I do have to wear gloves etc..as it is strong irritant to skin..even in this very mild sugar solution form...even bees don't like it..and it makes them very 'stroppy' :-X
Carpenters are using it to bleach wood so it gives some idea what it does....applying it direct to chickens.. :-\..hmm..

I would find it bit too much hassle when the DE powder works so well.

[Vision]

I was going to do a rhubarb spray this year after reading an article in the Daily Mail. It was only about two or three months ago called Know your Rhubarb with a recipe for the spray, by Monty Don, Have the Daily Mail committed an offence by putting this in print.

[goodlife]

"Have the Daily Mail committed an offence by putting this in print."


Well yes they have.. ::)
One time I used to say "I'm not really instructing you in anyway..but..if for example you were to 'do this and that..' ...it would do 'such and such' to your 'plant problem'... ;) ;D..but in recent years these 'home made' remedies have surfaced again all over the place that I stopped making fuss about being 'correct'.. ::)
These regulations have been in place for years..but it is almost impossible to stop people using them.

I will admit that some things I will always carry on making..it would be silly to spend money for something that is so easy to make yourself..it is judgement call for what is safe and what is not...sadly 'common sense' is not automatic for everybody and that's why these 'regulations' have to be in place..whether they work is another story.. ::)

[grannyjanny]

I wonder if one were to make some of the aforesaid rhubarb spray how long it could be stored ;D ;D ;D.

[Vision]

I did do a search on the internet when thinking of making some, most sites say 2 to 3 days, and most sites say DO NOT USE ON EDIBLE PLANTS. The Daily Mail article by Monty Don did say nothing about how to use. and if you can`t use it on your plot why make it ???

[goodlife]

I wonder if one were to make some of the aforesaid rhubarb spray how long it could be stored ;D ;D ;D.

No idea when its made with fresh incredients. Concoction made from oxalic acid cannot be stored for long as in storage the 'strength' of its affectiveness change stronger..so if some specific strengt is necessary(like in beekeeping), it can be quite dangerous after while.

[goodlife]

I've used fresh rhubarb leaves as 'mulch' for years...and it does seem to do 'something' to certain plants.
I accidentally found out when chucking rhubarb tops under my gooseberry bushes after trimming them from stalkes that I never saw any gooseberry sawflies on my gooseberries anymore. I had this mulching habit for couple of years before the 'penny dropped'...and after that I successfully used in couple of other areas..just to test the theory.
My solomon's seal that grows 'wild' under Damson got hit every year with 'same' pest..have been hardy touched since the trial. It did take couple of years to break the life cycle of the sawfly..but now the question is..is it down to 'mulching only'?.. or does the fact that it was done by using rhubarb leaves that has the real effect?

Who cares..it worked and I've got plenty of rhubarb.. ;D

[sunloving]

I think the replies tell us what we knew already and this is that some home made remedies are efficacious and safer and easier to use than bought more dangerous chemicals.
and that the law creates a ridiculous offense that will never be prosecuted. But to always be careful.

Off course i'm not going to to spray the hens with anything that i don't know is safe for them but since the mites are pernicious and i have a spare coop I am going to nuke the old coop when i move the girls once the eggs hatch.

But the greater issue is that i come on this forum for advice and the thought that censorship of the discussion is on the cards because of this loophole is quite toxic to the sharing of knowledge be that discouragement or encouragement. Other peoples experiences make us rich and wise gardeners.  Advice about gardening should not be coming from chemical companies such as Dow who only have the bottom line as their goal who managed these last few years to sever the link between organic gardening and stables , but from communities such as ours.Indeed i learn t about aminopyralid damage and what it looks like from this forum in time to save a few of our dahlia varieties before it killed them all off there was no regulation on it use to protect me or the thousands of others who suffered these losses.

I boil the leaves in a small amount of water. Use left over leaf mush as a mulch on acid loving plants such as blueberry..
x Sunloving

[grannyjanny]

Well, my Grow It magazine fell through the letterbox today & they mustn't be aware of the law either as they have a whole section on home made sprays. I haven't time to read it ATM though as I need to sieve my garlic spray ;D. Don't tell will you ;).