Organic seeds

[mormor]

Dear Allotment friends! Where can I buy organic seeds (online) in the UK? What companies, websites, information? Please help as I have tried here in Denmark and it cost a fortune and wasn't delivered to the door! 80 g. seed in a 185 g. packing!  Ridiculous!

[mormor]

[Obelixx]

Is it that important the seeds are organic if you sow and grow them organically?

I found these sites by googling so have no personal experience -

https://www.organiccatalogue.com/seeds/

https://www.unwins.co.uk/organic-vegetable-seeds-cid798.html

You could also consider joining this organisation which has heirloom and organic seeds available for members - https://www.gardenorganic.org.uk/

[mormor]

Thank you. I'll look at them . I have only used ordinary seeds previously, but thought I'd give organic a try. I had also thought that seeds bought here might be better in the cooler continental climate. But not at that price for eight packets.

[ACE]

Why waste money and get conned into buying 'organic' seed. If the seed was produced in a demarcated bed in a greenhouse all sorts of cross pollination could take place. Then are you are going to sow them in organic compost of which there is no such thing in modern peatless composts, the ones with peat need additives and they keep moving the goalposts on that. Grow for taste, not some silly idea that you can be organic. You are on a very slippery slope going organic, before you know it you will be vegan or have never watched the Game of Thrones, whichever is the fashion this year.

[mormor]

Well!  All the allotments are organic, and I am vegetarian and don't watch Game of Thrones.I make my own compost and don't buy any.  So I guess I am totally outside all common sense.  And each to his own! 

[Obelixx]

I buy my seeds from reputable suppliers but then grow them organically.  Not enough compost generated yet in this new garden and what we do make will be used as mulch anyway.   I think successional sowing, barriers against pests and a sheltered polytunnel or greenhouse with coldframes for extending the season are more important than organically sourced seeds.

I don't watch Game of Thrones either but each to their own.

Good luck with your project.   What varieties are you hoping to grow?

[mormor]

My choice of varieties is extremely practical! Short Brussels sprouts because of wind. Long beetroot because I like to pickle them. No lettuce because of slug infestation. And all sorts of beans because I love them! I think you get the picture!

[rowbow]

Hi hope this helps, the real seed company sores there seeds from all over the EU, no GM or F1: icon_cheers:
www.realseeds.co.uk.

[squeezyjohn]

I have never really understood organic seeds as part of the organic movement.  None of the seed ends up in the fruit or vegetables you grow - they are made from the soil you grow in, the water you water them with and rain and carbon from the air.

[Vinlander]

I began organic gardening in the glory years when the proponents were a shining light of common sense, experience and good science in a decade where the vast majority routinely gardened how their fathers and grandfathers did - with every chemical and 'cide they could lay their hands on...

The big companies were happy to use 90% spin,  5% honest ignorance and 5% deliberate pseudo-science to encourage their customers to ignore good, questioning scientific criticism from people like Rachel Carson and Lawrence D. Hills (they still are).

Over the years as the organic movement grew it it was inevitable that it would attract crystal-botherers and fringe zealots seeking crazy levels of intangibles like "pure" (white sugar is pure) and "clean" (there goes your immune system - if it doesn't turn on you first).

It should be a new Parkinson's law that as any movement grows it gathers the seeds of its own destruction, because the kind of people who want to run things are driven by their own inability to help in any other way - they lack the creativity to actually contribute anything useful to it - they often have no ability in any department at all - but that's management folks...

Even worse it often becomes trendy (usually because economic growth makes it possible to buy it rather than commit time effort and most importantly thought to it).

This forum's contributors have very little of these counter-productive traits - we are all pretty much happiest getting healthy exercise and fresh food by hard, dirty graft - not seekers for the short cut of hidden arcane knowledge.

Organic seeds are a 'halfway house' (see? I got to the point eventually!).

They have merit but are over-rated because they aren't getting the kind of meta-analysis that has shown which drugs, operations and regimes in the NHS actually cost what they are worth. Of course data only becomes good advice when the practitioner has considered all the angles - including where unusual patients are not significantly represented in the data.

We have been through a period where genes were everything - it's all about having the best ancestry (aristoi? don't make me LOL).

Now we know that the hardships of the parents can be passed on via a whole range of enzymes etc. (more mechanisms are found every month). This affects which parts of the DNA are switched on or off - the toolkit is the same but  other things are passed on to affect which tools get used.

DNA is still king, but I'm not qualified to say whether it's 80, 90, 95%? I do feel demonising Lamarck was a step too far - but then he did rock the boat under the "gentlefolk".

If you think that smaller organic companies will give you fresher, bigger seeds that get away faster then it's worth going with that; (my own saved veg seeds are even bigger, even fresher, and each seed is much less well bred - or is it? who knows? DKDC).

If you believe that it's essential that every seed is as close as possible to the parents then it is worth going to the big firms; (incidentally most commercial crop growers have more land than any seedsmen - so popular tomato and pepper varieties from a shop might contain less rogue seeds than those in packets - they are certainly a hell of a lot cheaper and you get to choose on taste - much more reliable than labels).

Every position between these two extremes is tenable and reasonable - as far as we know now.

Cheers.
PS. Hidden arcane knowledge is so much easier to obtain than scientific knowledge - what the seekers don't want to realise is that it is also so much easier to fake.

[Tee Gee]

I have never really understood organic seeds as part of the organic movement

Nor me!

Usually I don't get drawn in to subjects like this because they are just that..."subjective" However I thought I might put my tuppence worth in this time in the hope that it is seen as a " personal view" and is not meant to directed at anyone!

Here goes!

I see "Organic growing" as a 'Non Level Playing Field' simply because there are so many definitions of the word " Organic"

As I understand it one does not use chemicals ever!

But I also understand it that commercial people, that is those who have permission/license to declare their products as " Organic" can use chemicals providing they are not " Synthetic"  ????????

Then there are other differences for example "an amateur" if using chemicals usually does it when their plants are affected by something whereas commercial growers use chemical as a " preventative measure" meaning that on occasions they may have used chemicals in situations where they may have not needed to!

Personally I use them when required but as it happens this is very rare because of my 'garden hygiene practices'

The bit I can't get my head around is those people who preach that they would not give there children fruit and vegetables treated with chemicals are among the first to reach for the "Kalpol" bottle (or some such product) are these products not " Chemical"


If I cast my mind back some 60+years when I had to take " Chemistry" at school the gist of chemistry is:  if you mix two or more products, not necessarily chemicals (water for one) together you produce a different chemical and as squeezyjohn says " the plants/seeds are made from the soil you grow in, the water you water them with and rain and carbon from the air"

I know lots of people on this forum mix their own fertilser "tea" e.g. Adding Comfrey or Nettles to a barrel of water!

Is the end product not a "chemical" and come to that would you define the mixture as natural or synthetic?

I see the whole "Organic issue" as a minefield and this is why I don't usually get involved with debates on it!


Question?.... When did " Organic Growing" begin?

I have my opinions as to when it it did and why..........but that is another long story!


BTW Sorry for my Tuppence worth turning into fourpenny worth! 

PS Just noticed Vin has entered the affray while I was typing this so I will head over and read his opinion...Tg

[Tee Gee]

Couldn't have put it better myself Vin.....loved your essay

[DrJohnH]

Pulling up a chair and getting the popcorn ready.  I have a feeling this might be an interesting one to file along with:

"There's no problem with Glyphosate"
"No-dig is great for your back"
"Rock Dust is the dog's doo dahs"
etc.

I have no experience with any of the above topics either- just learning the ropes

[Tee Gee]

"There's no problem with Glyphosate"

Not according to reports coming out of the European Union where I understand  it is being treated like the proverbial tennis ball where it  is bouncing back and forth from one 'court' to another.

But as you say; I have a feeling this might be an interesting one to file along with:

You might be right John.

BTW Doctor of what? Not Organics by any chance is it? 

[winecap]

I was going to put in a plug for Realseeds as well. I've never been disappointed with them. I think they sell an excellent range which includes strictly organic suppliers and those not so, but are clear as to which are which. I believe many suppliers of organic seed try and source varieties which grow well organically without the need for chemical intervention. That may be the main reason for buying such although you might find the same variety from one of the big suppliers.

[DrJohnH]

BTW Doctor of what? Not Organics by any chance is it? 

Environmental Science/Toxicology

[DrJohnH]

DNA is still king, but I'm not qualified to say whether it's 80, 90, 95%? I do feel demonising Lamarck was a step too far - but then he did rock the boat under the "gentlefolk".

Although Darwin's theory holds, I think that the emerging field of epigenetics may vindicate Lamarck to some extent...time will tell.

[ed dibbles]

Of course everything in the universe is made of chemicals.

Even worse it often becomes trendy (usually because economic growth makes it possible to buy it rather than commit time effort and most importantly thought to it). (Vinlander)


But I also understand it that commercial people, that is those who have permission/license to declare their products as " Organic" can use chemicals providing they are not " Synthetic"  ???????? Tee Gee

I agree with both these statements. Buying supermarket "organic" produce sounds worthy but can still contain chemicals. Growing crops in raised beds is very trendy at present.

Plants root hairs absorb nutrient in solution from the soil by osmosis. Whether the nutrient comes from BFB, chicken pellets or growmore is irrelevant as far as the plant is concerned.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root_hair

Feeding the soil is beneficial and can be practised whether one uses garden chemicals or not.

I too like Real Seeds. Not so much because of their non hybrid/organic credentials but because they have some interesting and unusual varieties as well as varieties practically raised from the dead.

[galina]

Oh dear Mormor, all the 'whys and wherefores' when all you wanted was to know where you can buy organic seeds     

Well it matters a lot to some growers and not at all to others.  Often organic seed is produced more locally by small scale producers, more akin to home seed saving than big seed industry mass produced from goodness knows where.

I would like to add 'Brown Envelope Seeds' from Ireland to the list already mentioned. http://www.brownenvelopeseeds.com/ 

[mormor]

Goodness! I had no idea that my question could create such a debate!  🥒🍅🥕🌽🌶🍏 Good gardening everyone!