Apple questions

[davholla]

Sorry for so many questions

1) I have a family tree (M26) (Jupiter, Jester and Fiesta) also a Balerina (Bolero - wonderful taste)  and 2 M27 Ashmead's Kernel and Pixie.
Are these are spur or tip bearers?  Would most people prune these?  If so when summer and winter?  I don't want them to grow bigger (apart from one of the M27's).
2) Is it possible to store apples inside this year I left 2 bags in the shed and a rat got them!!!
3) Any tips for picking apples from the highest branches - the tree is not strong enough to lean a ladder against it
4) Has anyone tried the super columnar from Chris Bowers?  Are they any good?  Do they really need that much space as they say?

https://www.chrisbowers.co.uk/guides/apple-trees.php#supercolumn

5) A bit broke of the M27 and I put it a pot to see if it will root any thoughts on this idea?

[davholla]

[Palustris]

Can answer the first, they are all spur bearing types.
I do early winter pruning on ours. Summer pruning makes them produce lots of 'water shoots'.
Apples are best stored cool and dark. Rats got at ours which when you are talking of over 1 hundredweight of apples is a lot to lose.
You can but long handled fruit picking gadgets.
No idea.

[davholla]

Can answer the first, they are all spur bearing types.
I do early winter pruning on ours. Summer pruning makes them produce lots of 'water shoots'.
Apples are best stored cool and dark. Rats got at ours which when you are talking of over 1 hundredweight of apples is a lot to lose.
You can but long handled fruit picking gadgets.
No idea.

Thank you.  Sorry to hear about your apple loss, what will you do to store them in future?  Or are you like me thinking about it?

About pruning is it something that must be done or is not needed?

[Beersmith]

Quick response to item 5.

This is unlikely to work. The bit that broke off is the scion wood, so will no longer be on a dwarfing rootstock. If it does develop its own roots (possible though unlikely) there is no way to tell how big the tree will grow as it matures (it might be small, it might be huge)  or if the roots will be weak or vigorous. And if it does grow the number of years it will take to start fruiting is also an unknown.

Of course, you could see this as a fun experiment. Just wanted to manage your expectations. On the plus side, if it grows it should fruit true to the original scion wood. Sometimes it is enjoyable just to try these things, provided you don't have unrealistic expectations.

[Palustris]

Since we are moving to a property with no fruit trees, storing the apples in future is not needed. If we were stopping here then I would have to find somewhere where the rodents could not get at them. They ate their way through a wooden floor to gain access to them.

[davholla]

Quick response to item 5.

This is unlikely to work. The bit that broke off is the scion wood, so will no longer be on a dwarfing rootstock. If it does develop its own roots (possible though unlikely) there is no way to tell how big the tree will grow as it matures (it might be small, it might be huge)  or if the roots will be weak or vigorous. And if it does grow the number of years it will take to start fruiting is also an unknown.

Of course, you could see this as a fun experiment. Just wanted to manage your expectations. On the plus side, if it grows it should fruit true to the original scion wood. Sometimes it is enjoyable just to try these things, provided you don't have unrealistic expectations.

It is more of a fun experiment than thinking I will get a tree - to be honest I have nowhere to put it.

[Beersmith]

M26 is a much more vigorous rootstock than M27.

M27 is very dwarfing, and even a mature tree will probably never exceed 6 feet in height. M26 is still described as dwarfing, but when fully grown may reach 12 feet tall.

As for pruning, remember that it is certainly necessary for a very young tree as this is the period when you are creating the basic framework. This lasts for about four years. This pruning can be  fairly severe as it stimulates growth. After this period as the tree becomes more mature, you prune to maintain fruiting, keeping the tree open and healthy. This pruning is usually much less severe. But as a minimum you must prune out any dead or diseased wood, and remove wood that is crossing and growth that overcrowds the centre.

[davholla]

ut as a minimum you must prune out any dead or diseased wood, and remove wood that is crossing and growth that overcrowds the centre.

When should I do this winter or summer?  Or does it depend on whether I want to stimulate growth or not?

[Beersmith]

Quick response to item 5.

This is unlikely to work. The bit that broke off is the scion wood, so will no longer be on a dwarfing rootstock. If it does develop its own roots (possible though unlikely) there is no way to tell how big the tree will grow as it matures (it might be small, it might be huge)  or if the roots will be weak or vigorous. And if it does grow the number of years it will take to start fruiting is also an unknown.

Of course, you could see this as a fun experiment. Just wanted to manage your expectations. On the plus side, if it grows it should fruit true to the original scion wood. Sometimes it is enjoyable just to try these things, provided you don't have unrealistic expectations.

It is more of a fun experiment than thinking I will get a tree - to be honest I have nowhere to put it.

I like that. It is fun to try something different. I have three lovely roses at one end of my allotment, grown from cuttings, or to be honest prunings that I stuck into some compost and crossed my fingers. (Some you win).

On the other hand I have grown three apple trees from pips in the hope I would discover a new unique, great tasting variety. If anything seemed promising, I planned to graft it onto M9 and have my very own apple. Vain hope, I produced nothing but assorted crab apples. (Some you lose).

[Beersmith]

ut as a minimum you must prune out any dead or diseased wood, and remove wood that is crossing and growth that overcrowds the centre.

When should I do this winter or summer?  Or does it depend on whether I want to stimulate growth or not?

For ordinary apple trees grown as standards or bushes prune in winter.  Summer pruning is a technique usually employed for restricted shapes like fans, espalliers, and step overs. I don't grow any of these so cannot advise further.  Others may have more advice.

[Beersmith]

And finally,

I followed your link to the Chris Bowers super column web page. And it left me puzzled. The columns are available for many standard varieties, so they must be grafted onto a rootstock but it does not say which.

So it could be a special rootstock that produces the column shape, or it could be a standard rootstock with the column growth produced by the pruning regimen. Nowhere could I see any information to clarify this.

If the former the tree may largely "look after itself", but if the latter it might require careful pruning to retain the column shape.

I'd be wary and not buy until I had more information.

[Vinlander]

Since we are moving to a property with no fruit trees, storing the apples in future is not needed. If we were stopping here then I would have to find somewhere where the rodents could not get at them. They ate their way through a wooden floor to gain access to them.

I always despair when I see beginners clear out the sheds they inherit - nearly everyone who has been at this for decades will have a range of tin boxes to protect seeds and fruits from rats.

I tried & failed to persuade a nearby plot against throwing away a slightly rusty steel filing cabinet - they are perfect for storing apples in a shed - leave the drawers open until the colder weather but close them before the rats arrive. There should be enough ventilation for the colder periods but it's also easy to jam the drawer not quite shut - a gap the width of a biro won't let rats in.

I didn't need the cabinet myself because I have the old stainless steel container (& lid) of an ancient upright washing machine in my shed (and an old fridge in my back garden for beets etc.). I also use old galvanised cold water tanks as ratproof compost heaps.

I'm confident the beginners will regret chucking that cabinet.

Cheers.

[davholla]

Interestingly this has been discussed before
Apparently they have been selling these for 10 years but I can't find a single positive or negative review on line
https://www.allotments4all.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=79595.0

[galina]

I tried & failed to persuade a nearby plot against throwing away a slightly rusty steel filing cabinet - they are perfect for storing apples in a shed - leave the drawers open until the colder weather but close them before the rats arrive. There should be enough ventilation for the colder periods but it's also easy to jam the drawer not quite shut - a gap the width of a biro won't let rats in.

I didn't need the cabinet myself because I have the old stainless steel container (& lid) of an ancient upright washing machine in my shed (and an old fridge in my back garden for beets etc.). I also use old galvanised cold water tanks as ratproof compost heaps.

I think it was Bob Flowerdew who suggested using defunct fridges and especially freezers for storing apples in garages without vermin access. 

[Vinlander]

I think it was Bob Flowerdew who suggested using defunct fridges and especially freezers for storing apples in garages without vermin access. 

I did use my spare fridge in the garage a few times. I had it on until the average temperatures got near fridge temperature and then left it off for the rest of the winter (otherwise it freezes up!). It worked OK but I noticed mould appeared in there when I stopped opening the door for a few days ('cos I ate the best varieties first) - I'd recommend wedging & fixing the door slightly open as soon as you turn it off.

Old fridges outdoors are excellent as clamps for roots as the humidity is a bonus, but for fruit it would be tricky to crack the door without rain getting in.

Cheers.

[ancellsfarmer]

I think it was Bob Flowerdew who suggested using defunct fridges and especially freezers for storing apples in garages without vermin access. 

I did use my spare fridge in the garage a few times. I had it on until the average temperatures got near fridge temperature and then left it off for the rest of the winter (otherwise it freezes up!). It worked OK but I noticed mould appeared in there when I stopped opening the door for a few days ('cos I ate the best varieties first) - I'd recommend wedging & fixing the door slightly open as soon as you turn it off.

Old fridges outdoors are excellent as clamps for roots as the humidity is a bonus, but for fruit it would be tricky to crack the door without rain getting in.

Cheers.

Yes but most modern fridges have the back made of insulation, possibly within a plastic panel. Easy to drill a few holes and cover with a cheap louvre air vent, such as this:
https://www.diy.com/departments/map-vent-adjustable-vent/34930_BQ.prd

[Vinlander]

Fortunately or unfortunately I don't expect to have a spare new-type fridge for years - I've yet to need one or buy one - and both my current one and the spare are the old type with lots of tubes in awkward places.

They also contain CFCs from decades ago (probably the really bad ones) so there's no way I'm going to risk letting it gas out - the council used to take fridges away for free but ours doesn't any more - which probably explains why I see more dumped ones - quite a few are damaged in the process. It's just totally short-sighted penny-pinching.

Old-fashioned ammonia is making a comeback - it's flammable and caustic but a really simple compound with no new surprises (see signature text).

If you aren't stupid enough to kill yourself with it or tear-gas your neighbours with it then the environment & bacteria will deal with it quite quickly (obviously it's a fertiliser that can be made into liquid feed if bubbled through any acid).

Some of the recent ones use fuel gases that contribute to greenhouse effects (bacteria aren't interested in these).

Modern fluorinated gases are supposed to be no danger to ozone - so they say - but they said that about CFCs. The testing has improved a lot, but I doubt they have improved by even one order of magnitude and  the planet is still more complex than we know - by many orders of magnitude.

Like the man said - real wisdom is realising how little you know...

Literally a minefield - and any fridge in the open wouldn't have stopped the winter of 2010/11 from freezing your apples anyway.

Cheers.

[galina]

Literally a minefield - and any fridge in the open wouldn't have stopped the winter of 2010/11 from freezing your apples anyway.

Not so sure about that.  We have an ancient caravan in which we store apples.  And those did survive down to -16C  successfully.  Undoubtedly it never got that cold inside the caravan, but neither would it get that cold inside an outdoor fridge or freezer.   

[Vinlander]

We have an ancient caravan in which we store apples.  And those did survive down to -16C  successfully.  Undoubtedly it never got that cold inside the caravan, but neither would it get that cold inside an outdoor fridge or freezer.   

That's interesting - in 2010/11 I only had double bubble and a bunch of water-filled 2L bottles around my Meyers Lemon. All the bottles froze and the tree was killed to a couple of cm above the soil (fortunately it's back and fruited the last year or two, so any graft must have been lower down).

I've nothing to compare with your actual experience with caravan apples - mine weren't at risk in an unplugged fridge in the garage.

Old caravans tend to be draughty too, so it looks like Bob F does know his onions.

Cheers.

[davholla]

Can I slightly rephrase one of the questions, has anyone tried growing cordon apple trees?  Any thoughts?