As soon as I see corn salad in flower I begin to think the seed saving season is not far away. Some committed seed savers might already have planted out root vegetables stored over winter for flowering and seed setting this summer. But whatever your level of seed-saving, it's time to be alert to the opportunities ahead.
It's been a challenging season for many with so much constant rain in UK through winter and spring, leading to waterlogged soil and delayed spring planting. I hope that in spite of the challenges the weather throws at us, you're having an enjoyable spring sowing and planting, including dipping into the wonderful range of seeds the Circle shared in late 2023. It would be very good to hear of progress and to share results and experiences. I hope that last year's enthusiastic band will be willing and able to participate again and it would also be great if any new members would like to join us.
For those who haven't participated before, here's some information to help you decide if you would like to join.
The Seed Circle is open to all A4A participants; it's great to have new people join too. The group is all about setting aside a little growing space, and time, to raise some crops for seeds, keeping the group informed as to how the season is going, then at the end of the season, probably in November, sharing some growing information and your saved seeds with the group.
Each person decides what 2 or more crops they will grow and save seed from (we do inc. tubers, bulbs and cuttings, but do make sure they are well wrapped so that they don't dampen any seeds). They will then aim to save enough seed for other Circle members to grow a crop the following year. The group could be up to 12 people but is more often under 10. Recently it has numbered about 7 participants. Varieties will generally need to be heritage or open pollinated so that they will come true from seed (potato seeds won't come exactly true). If you include grown out hybrids please state this clearly.
Some vegetables are easier and more reliable than others to save seed from. But generally peas, French beans, tomatoes, perhaps potatoes and some herbs are the easiest. Chillies, sweet peppers, squash, courgette and to some extent lettuce will need isolating from other varieties to keep seed pure. Parsnips, onions, leeks, beetroot, carrots, celeriac and many brassicas only go to seed in the second year and need isolation from other varieties and so are more time-consuming and a little trickier.
Real Seeds created the idea for the circles. Their site gives some great seed saving tips as well as being a great seed catalogue http://www.realseeds.co.uk/seedsavinginfo.html.
There is also a brilliant series of shortish videos on seed saving for different vegetables at: https://www.diyseeds.org/en/
For anyone interested, what we shared in 2020, 2021, 2022 and 2023 can be found with images and donors' notes at https://airtable.com/shryC20nRNmUcgT30. Try Gallery View.
The seeds exchanged from 2017-2019 can be found at https://seedsaverscircle.home.blog/
And for seed exchanging from 2010 to 2016 at http://seedsaverscircle.org/seed-circle/a4a-seed-saver-group-2014/
And some previous threads for the Circles:
Seed Circle 2023 https://www.allotments4all.co.uk/smf/index.php/topic,83426.0.html
Seed Circle 2022 https://www.allotments4all.co.uk/smf/index.php/topic,83279.0.html
Seed Circle 2021 https://www.allotments4all.co.uk/smf/index.php/topic,83047.0.html
Seed Circle 2020 https://www.allotments4all.co.uk/smf/index.php/topic,82679.0.html
Please could a moderator pin this.
Thank you for offering to do the admin again for the A4A seed circle, Jan. It is quite a bit of work as I remember from years ago, but also very satisfying. And so many delicious and lovely plants are testimony to our seed saving efforts and your efficient hosting and distribution.
Now that Britain has started to implement import checking, this unfortunately also affects seeds and cuttings or other plant parts. After participating in this seed circle from the beginning and doing the distribution for some years, sadly I can no longer promise with any certainty that I can still participate from outside Britain. Not by regular means anyway. The faff of phytosanitary certification etc is a real problem for a small box of mixed seeds for the circle. I would love to still participate this year, but there is no way I can actually promise to get seeds to UK. Well, the chap who is likely to be the next PM, does talk about standards alignment and the like, so this difficulty participating may hopefully not persist for too long. :crybaby2:
Thank you, Galina, for clarifying your situation. It would be wonderful if these, like so many other, difficulties in the way of international co-operation, can be moderated before too long. I'm really sorry that you, and presumably Ruud, are unable, at the moment, to guarantee participation in the Circle to which you have contributed so much over so many years.
Let us hope for better things to come, and soon.
And I would like to add that help will be given to all who would like to have a go. Yes, there are vegetables that you can just let go to seed and collect, others need isolation and handpollination, and some are really demanding, take two years to come to seed fruition and then also need minimum numbers. But there are plenty in the easy or relatively easy category. I hope that somebody will read this who is new to seed saving and will want to give it a try. For years I wondered whether my own seeds were 'good enough'. Home saved seeds are usually way more than adequate and grow away better than commercial ones. Of course mistakes can and do happen but we all learn from mistakes. No big deal. Give it a go.
I am going into the greenhouse to read the riot act to all my sulking seedlings , this year as Terry-Thomas would say are a "Right Shower" so I am tentatively throwing my hat into the circle.
Hi everyone!
The sun is shining and the beans are sprouting - count me in! :sunny:
I'll be joining in again. I have some new cherry tomatoes, beans, sweet pepper and some flowers if they come true again this year.
I'll update later with variety names and give growing updates throughout the season.
Count me in!
I've taken on another plot at the allotment as I had too many things to grow! I'm not sure another round of Seed Circle will help... I might need a field in a few years time :toothy10:
I can't wait to see how the season progresses. Happy growing everyone!
I'm delighted that lso many of last year's participants are keen to join again. It would be great if Galina and Ruud could find a way of also participating but in the meantime it's excellent news that we have a good viable circle of at least five!
Congratulations on doubling your allotment holding, Juliev, and good luck with your sulky seedlings, Markfield Rover. Hopefully there will be a big move forward now that things have at last got somewhat warmer and brighter.
Just today I planted out in my polytunnel several varieties of tomato from last year's Circle. I've just done a count and found that we had 25 varieties in last year's exchange! I've sown many of them but not quite all. I'm hoping to squeeze as many as possible into my polytunnel without creating too much of a chaotic jungle. I'm also immersed in bean seed sowing and trying to grow as many of the 30 varieties of French beans possible. All very exciting! I look forward to hearing from any of you as to how you're dealing with so many rich possibilities!
I'm confident we'll have another excellent exchange and look forward to hearing how last year's contributions are doing and how things are looking for this year's seed collecting.
I'd love to know how you get organised too...
I've got maps and 100s of little bags everywhere! :tongue3:
Do you rotate what you grow and save seeds from? Or grow some mixed for eating and some separate for seed saving?
An interesting question, juliev. Maps etc sound very organised!
On rotation, I've begun to be influenced by Charles Dowding who has conducted comparisons and concluded that it makes little difference. With beans, for example, it's easier for me to keep some structures in place from year to year. I grow a lot of brassicas - not often for seed-saving - and haven't noticed a problem with overlapping some plantings on successive years. I try to rotate alliums where possible for fear of leaf miner recurring and white rot getting established. So far, so fairly good.
I use Airtable very heavily for knowing what I've sown and making lists etc., but If I have a set of something to plant out, I often don't know which empty space I'm going to plant them in until I wander around and look to see where might be best. Sometimes I'll earmark a space for something, like now where I'm keeping a good sunny spot free for a second batch of sweetcorn.
For seed-saving, I'm lucky to have two growing areas about 100 metres apart. I can do a certain amount of isolating that way. I tend to mix in the eating and the seed-saving unless there's something I'm very keen to get seed from in which case I wouldn't eat from it at all.
This is certainly a time of year which taxes the grey matter and keeps us thinking of lots of factors all at once. Lots of tricky decisions to be made!
I don't expect my wandering description conveys much clarity at all, probably because there isn't any kind of grand master plan. I'm aware some people plan their layout through the winter and have an overall map. I couldn't get anywhere near that as there are just so many variables and so many decision made on the hoof.
I would also be very interested to hear experiences from others. I'm also aware that isolating and crop protection must be more difficult for allotment holders as you're surrounded by the crops and predators of other growers. I'm surrounded by farm land but do sometimes have to reckon with nearby fields of maize and field beans which will affect seed saving. And occasionally predators from around are a problem, like some years I've thought that flea beetles have descended in force when the rape crop has been gathered in. So I now protect my most valued brassicas plants with fine mesh rather than just netting.
An endless and fascinating subject, so I'd better stop now! .
Every year is the year I am going to get organised have a system , I am getting better but so much room for improvement . I have a small ten drawer filing cabinet mainly in order of sowing dates , but lettuce, tomatoes and beans are separate, fail number one! I also like to keep seed swap seeds separate, fail number two! I am more organised with the seed swap , I grow on the allotment which means isolation is difficult , last year I added runner beans but these were grown at home. I have a separate bed for the seed circle and rarely use the produce ,seed saving being the priority. I keep a separate notebook for these seeds.
I think my problem is that I see each seed as a bit of a wonder and not just another seed .
The end result is plenty to eat and share. Sorry not to have been able to give any helpful ideas.
This is how I planned my seed sowing and planting out schedule; https://www.thegardenersalmanac.co.uk/Content/P/Planning/Planning.htm (https://www.thegardenersalmanac.co.uk/Content/P/Planning/Planning.htm)
Click on the images to enlarge them.
Quote from: markfield rover on May 30, 2024, 09:12:04
Every year is the year I am going to get organised have a system , I am getting better but so much room for improvement . I have a small ten drawer filing cabinet mainly in order of sowing dates , but lettuce, tomatoes and beans are separate, fail number one! I also like to keep seed swap seeds separate, fail number two! I am more organised with the seed swap , I grow on the allotment which means isolation is difficult , last year I added runner beans but these were grown at home. I have a separate bed for the seed circle and rarely use the produce ,seed saving being the priority. I keep a separate notebook for these seeds.
I think my problem is that I see each seed as a bit of a wonder and not just another seed .
The end result is plenty to eat and share. Sorry not to have been able to give any helpful ideas.
That actually sounds rather organised,MR. My seeds are much more scattered than yours. I have some in a little freezer, lettuce are in a box in the fridge, and others are in a utility room cupboard in various boxes.
I also admire the way you have a separate bed for the seed circle which implies that you think out in advance what you'd like to contribute, whereas I'm much less methodical and decide as the season progresses.
I very much like your feeling that each seed is a wonder. I completely agree and the ways in which seed germinates never fail to amaze and for me creates one of my main excitements in growing.
Quote from: Tee Gee on May 30, 2024, 15:22:29
This is how I planned my seed sowing and planting out schedule; https://www.thegardenersalmanac.co.uk/Content/P/Planning/Planning.htm (https://www.thegardenersalmanac.co.uk/Content/P/Planning/Planning.htm)
Click on the images to enlarge them.
I very much enjoyed looking at the way you organised your sowing and planting, Tee Gee. I imagine that, like you, many of us have moved from paper to computer records. As I've said before I use Airtable and what I love about it is that I can use it on my phone too and, for example, take a photo of a variety out in the garden and add it immediately to the record. I used to rely on a table I drew up of what to sow in each week of the year but decided on varieties as I went along. I still use this paper table sometimes as an extra check that I'm not missing anything.
My two growing areas consist of beds about four feet wide with grass paths between, wide enough to take our ride-on mower, so not too labour intensive, though keeping edges cut back is a regular task. But I have an elaborate system for recording bed numbers in polytunnel and in-ground beds. But in my case it's for my records, not for advance planning.
In your notes you raise the question of not growing excess because of space at this time of year before young plants are planted out. I certainly agree that this is a significant aspect. For certain crops, mainly the tender ones, I do have a lot of spares as an insurance. For example I mostly grow only one plant of each tomato variety as I have a lot of varieties I want to try each year. But I always pot on two and then choose the stronger one to plant on. All those extra tomato plants take up a lot of space. I do the same for aubergines, peppers, melons and cucurbits, so even more space. The waste of compost worries me although it ends up back on flower or vegetable beds so not exactly wasted, and some spares can be given away.
Juliev raised such an interesting subject. I guess we all devise approaches which fit our growing conditions but also reflect the ways our minds work. For example, I'm a meticulous recorder but shy away from being over-planned as I like to leave things open to chance or whim or circumstances at the time.
Thank you all for sharing your process, it is fascinating!
I am very much a pencil and paper person but I keep track of varieties and main info on an excel spreadsheet, as well as a rough sowing timeline and planting plans. I plan ahead for crops that need protection or that need longer in the ground. Others, I just draw the map after planting.
The seed boxes have multiplied (totally not my fault!). Separate ones for beans, peas, squashes, corn, and the rest goes in a final box. Add to that the extras for the seeds library... At least they are all in the same area :icon_cheers: Every month, I pull out what needs sowing into the "sow now" box and then they go back to where they belong. I really need to sort out a freezer back up...
Dealing with the volume of baby plants has been a challenge... Aubergines, peppers/chillies, tomatoes take up so much room for such a long time! I even left some in cells as an experiment and planted the survivors at the allotment (they can crop or they can become compost...). This year, I did all the beans and corn direct and most of the squashes (the direct seeded ones are doing better than the ones I started in pots).
Quote from: juliev on May 31, 2024, 08:44:59
Thank you all for sharing your process, it is fascinating!
This year, I did all the beans and corn direct and most of the squashes (the direct seeded ones are doing better than the ones I started in pots).
That's very interesting. A real time, space and compost saver, and one I'm thinking might be worth trying another year.
I grow my squashes in rather heavy unimproved soil which was recently untamed meadow. I could perhaps create sowing pockets into which to drop seeds, just as at the moment I create planting pockets.
For beans, some of which are particularly precious varieties, I sow about five in deepish modules but if there's any shortfall I direct sow a few extras too when I plant out.
I believe that neither squash nor corn like root disturbance so it's interesting that your plants are stronger from direct seeded. Do you have many failures? I guess one advantage of starting in modules is that you're less likely to have gaps but of course there's no guarantee that a planted out squash won't be entirely demolished by a slug, which has happened to a couple of mine!
This is so similar to my experience. In Rushden I had little choice but to pre-grow almost everything, as occasional early June frosts on very heavy, cold clay soil was what I was dealing with. Here I have started experimenting with direct sowing. I also found that plants initially were stronger as a result, but I have more losses due to slugs and rodents and also generally a lower germination rate. I still pregrow all my precious varieties where I only have a few seeds.
The planting into pockets of good soil, is the method recommended by John Yeoman to give plants a good start on an otherwise not ideal plot of land. As the pockets merge over the years, the bad soil gets better every growing cycle. It works well. And the gardener does not have the expense of improving all of the soil at once. By the time the plant roots outgrow the good soil pocket, they will be strong enough to deal with hard clay and the roots will be big enough to seek out necessary nutrients a bit further away. Not many of us produce Charles Dowding quantities of compost, enough for an overall covering of a couple of inches, so the pockets are a good compromise.
Interesting to hear your experiences of direct sowing too, Galina. I usually say that I don't have too much of a slug problem compared with many people but this year they are certainly fairly rampant, especially on my newer meadow area, after the unusually wet winter and spring. I'm finding that it's the weaker plants they specially go for so I'm growing on for longer and aiming to plant out more robust plants, even repotting occasionally before planting on. I suppose direct sown seedlings are exposed to threats for longer. In a drier year, for later crops like beans, especially the less precious, it might be very worthwhile.
Here rodent attacks are much heavier in the winter. If I attempt peas in modules overwinter, I'm learning that it's much better to plant them out under cover as late as possible, February perhaps, when the mice/voles seem less desperate.
Having said that rodents here are mainly a problem in winter, some years rats find my sweetcorn patch and wreak havoc around September time.
For planting pockets, I keep the same two beds for squash plants. As squash are planted so far apart I think it will be a good few years before my planting pockets merge, but interesting to hear that John Yeoman approved! It certainly didn't seem to be worth attempting to improve the whole bed for squash, so they simply have to suffer the roughest end of my recently reclaimed area, making do with their rather hurriedly made pockets.
An obelisk full of sweet pea? Certainly getting there. They look and smell divine. Thank you vetivert. I have never grown sweet peas before and love these Enigmas from our circle.
ps sorry thumbnail is sideways. Loads the right way up for me.
Yes,they're lovely aren't they. They fade almost to white as they age. I usually grow Mariana each year, which is quite close to a wild pea colouring, but I deserted them this year in favour of Enigma. A delightful change.
Lots of other delights too. Hungarian zucchini, thank you Galina, from the year before, has romped ahead of the others and gave us our first courgette last night. Born mangetout has been wonderful, thanks Markfield Rover, giving plentiful pods very early and I'm looking forward to the very long podding pods of Alex, which are nearly ready. They were contributed by Vetivert.
The list of wonders could go on and on. It's so delightful to be introduced to new varieties, several of which would be otherwise unavailable, and have fresh surprises every day!
Nice Potimarron squashes peeking out. The plants have rambled into the grass area and the fruits are turning colour from yellow to orange. Nice and early. Thank you Sparrow for seeds from the seed circle before last.
Great stuff! You're doing very well to have squash so well advanced. I've had my worst year ever with squash as they were severely attacked by far more slugs than usual. Some I replanted from spares and so they're very behind. I was very sad to lose Sibley from your seeds, Galina, but luckily there are more seeds to try again next year.
There are so many Seed Circle delights to be enjoyed daily. Picking out one for the moment, I've been really enjoying the bean, Red Swan. Thank you, Juliev. I have in fact grown it before in the fairly distant past but I'm pretty sure the pods weren't as beautifully red, so it's lovely to have this strain. The pods are also surrounded by lots of delicately pretty pinkish flowers. They're very well behaved too, not flopping everywhere like some dwarf beans. Definitely a delight.
The slugs and pigeons certainly got organised this year , this appears to have abated and and the first seeds are in!
Thank goodness the threat has abated at last. What are you sowing now that August is here?
Starting brassicas always seems difficult here at this time of year with cabbage whites and flea beetles threatening seedlings.
Sorry I meant to imply the first of the seeds are gathered in, tomato Essex Wonder , I am though sowing Dragons Breath greens! Should do well in all this rain, impeding the cabbage whites.
Silly of me to have misunderstood. It did seem a bit unlikely the way I took it!
I just began to ferment my first tomato seeds too - a little row of small jars on my kitchen window-sill, including Black Plum and Dancing with Smurfs.
I've got as far as a white bucket full of Brune d'Hiver lettuce seed heads, yet to be dealt with. It's one of my favourite winter varieties of lettuce.
Peas were very poor for me this year but the few I have are drying down now and yielding a few seeds. I enjoyed your Born mangetout, Markfield R. They were our earliest pea variety and one I look forward to growing again. By way of pea seed, I should have good quantities of Carouby de Mausanne and Sugar Magnolia, another Alan Kapuler variety.
A thank you for the Thelma Sanders squash seeds again, Sparrow.
Doing very well this year, two fruits are already in storage, 3 more very nearly so. Both lower fruits having changed colour to buff white, which is a sign they can come off the vine and get stored. The third fruit with the marker is handpollinated. It is still ivory white coloured, so needs a few more weeks on the vine.
After failing twice to save pure seeds before, including last year, it finally worked out this year. And they are still flowering, so who knows how many more fruits these two vines may give us.
PS Sorry the photo of the whole vine does not load properly, not sure how to fix it.
Well done, Galina, especially for your success in hand pollinating Thelma Sanders,and for being able to crop so soon. My squash disaster this year extended to Thelma Sanders too. They seemed particularly delicious to slugs. I planted out two which were munched completely down to a mere stub. I then planted a substitute having doused the area with nematodes and this one disappeared completely too. At least with other casualties, a token skeleton was left, but Thelma Sanders were their particular favourite.
☹️☹️
Squashes really are your problem crop this year. I sympathise. These Thelmas started off as seeds inside a cut off plastic bottle. Direct seeding worked fine, but with bottle protection. When I removed the bottles, the leaves were all squashed together, but they recovered within a day and spred. I have one larger cloche, which used to be a water cooler bottle that had been thrown in a ditch, but that was reserved for the rarest squash I have this year. Sometimes mineral water comes in huge plastic bottles, they would make decent cloches. But if the slug predation is bad, they will take out whole plants here too. And what I hate most of all, is when I have handpollinated a female flower and that is then eaten the next day after all the effort of trying to save seeds. And when I have succeeded, like with Todo el Ano last year and have half mature hand pollinated fruit, then the voles come and sever the whole plants at ground level. I share your frustration Jan. There is a lot of it here too. Which is why it was great to get repeat seeds for Thelma.
We also have enormous slugs which tend to come out just as I go in for the evening. They get halved with a trowel karate chop, but in a bad year it is so difficult to keep on top of them.
Thanks for your sympathy, Galina. Both squashes and beans grow in my second growing area which is fairly recently reclaimed from meadow which has been left completely wild for decades. The pest predation seems higher there than in my longer established area where I think the variety of things grown, including quite a lot of flowers, encourages a more balanced system.
Bean success has been mixed and there has been a small handful of unexplained deaths. But on the other hand there have been some great successes from Seed Circle donations. I believe I've already mentioned the dwarf beans, Bobis d'Albenga, which was very early, and Red Swan, which is very beautiful. Thank you, Juliev. Also very early and productive was Markfield Rover's Black Valentine. It's lovely to be growing Garrett's Selma Zebra, especially now we've sorted out the difference from Zelma Zesta. It is beautifully streaked and nicely healthy and productive. Melbourne's Mini, as the name suggests, is also producing lots of smallish snap beans, and Italian Snap is also providing good pickings. There are several others too and I'm very grateful to all our generous participants for such wonderful variety.
I would like to agree heartily. I believe my favourite beefsteak tomato this year is Green Cherokee, which has a beautiful flavour. Beans too, aren't the Ice/Christal Wax beautiful when the pods age and the tips go purple?
As if nature wanted to underline what I had written earlier, I just found this. :BangHead: Fortunately it was only the second and not the first handpollinated Potimarron.
A sad sight. ☹️
As someone who struggles to find flowers to hand pollinate, I'm a little puzzled by the implications. If this flower has already been pollinated and the centre is intact, might the squash still develop as hoped?
The squash hopefully yes, but since I don't know when the slug dined (I suspect during the night) and what other insects may have repollinated afterwards with pollen of another variety, the seed purity is in doubt. I would never use such a squash for seed sharing.
If I had no other, I would take the seed and observe purity of variety next time I grow them. Luckily I do. And that fruit is in storage already - it was the fruit I photographed earlier peaking out from the grass. And this sad flower is just as likely to get aborted by the plant, which is carrying two fruits already.
Ah yes, of course. You had tied up the flower to stop other pollinators having access to the centre. Hence the forlorn tie lying on the ground beside it. I have rarely got to that stage and had forgotten. 😏
Yes, exactly. if you don't retie the female flower after handpollination with the right pollen, you wil be likely to get further visits from insects with stray pollen. A garden friend quoted research on this, which said that on average a squash flower gets visited by insects, especially bees, 8 times. And that could be a lot of stray pollen. Which is why we need to retie afterwards and leave the tie on until it drops off naturally, after the flower has wilted.
It is also recommended, if possible, to use more than one male flower. To mimick nature where flowers are pollinated more frequently. But, as you say, it is quite an ask to have both female and male flowers ready at the same time, to have multiple male flowers available is quite rare. You can't use a male flower that has already opened either for the same reason - it could have been visited by several bees bringing wrong pollen already. Takes a bit of practice to spot male and female flowers in the evening, that are both at the same development stage, ie still closed but already large and yellow, and tie them up for handpollination the next morning.
I also found it more difficult in UK and at times had squash in the greenhouse, just for the purpose of getting more flowers in the warmer environment there.
Easiest squashes to handpollinate are cucurbita pepo and cucurbita maxima. You don't need to worry about Fig Leaf, cucurbita ficifolia, as it is so rarely grown that there is unlikely to be stray pollen around - other than maybe in an allotment setting. The most difficult are the cucurbita moschata squashes, the butternuts. They need the most warmth and good weather to produce enough flowers. It can be so easy, but i very much sympathise with your frustration. For me each successfully handpollinated squash growing to maturity, is still a bit of a seed saving triumph.
Yes, thanks for this further detail and scene-setting. This year I'm growing three plants of Waltham butternut in my polytunnel, which is a long way from my squash beds, so I'm assuming (hoping) they will remain true. They're 100 metres apart with a small, wooded copse between.
This year I put bags over two courgette flowers I thought were ready to open, quite large and still pointed. The weather was grey and they failed to open for three days, by which time one flower was looking sickly. So, as you say, it does take some spotting.
I'm assuming it's rather too late in the season now?
No August is still fine, but so much depends on the weather. If you have the right flowers, just do it anyway and hope the weather holds. Even early September is still ok. With squashes the post harvest seed ripening matters a lot. If you handpollinate in early September and let the fruit grow for as long as the weather permits, then post ripen indoors until after Christmas, you should still get good seeds. I have handpollinated late, but to give them a better chance, have taken off any other fruit already on that vine.
It is very unusual that a large, yellow flower would hang on for so long before opening. I always tie my flowers and wonder whether the bags were causing this somehow maybe? Just one half knot, not too tight, so it can be opened again the next day. It is easier with thicker garden twine or with really thick coloured wool which doesn't cut into the petals as you make the half knot. The coloured wool makes it easier to see the flower the next day when you come to handpollinate.
RealSeeds use rubber bands, which I find more difficult. Others even use clothes pegs for a quick flower close. I have experimented with clothes pegs too and it worked, but found that, since you need string anyway to mark the stem of the handpollinated fruit, you might as well use string to keep the flowers closed.
I must say I have been thinking about experimenting with little organza baggies, but not if they hold the flower development back.
Yes, I think I need to get hold of some coloured wool (not a knitter so none to hand) for pollinated peppers too. I experimented with plastic bag clips but they cut into the flower too much.
In view of your encouragement I shall continue to look for likely pairs with string, for now, to hand.
I've just picked three beautiful large tomatoes from Garrett's Grandma Viney's. It's amazing. The largest weighed over 2lbs and they're a wonderful yellow and pink colour. I wonder whether anyone else has grown it and found it so unusually productive. I haven't tasted it yet. It seems a shame to cut into such beautiful fruit!
Are you growing them inside? Mine are outside and are acting as if it is June , I'll get back to you when they get their act together.
Yes, mine are in my polytunnel. I hope yours make some rapid progress. Some warmer weather this next week might help a little? 🤞
I hope nobody is sick of handpollinating squash photos. But today there were a few good examples in the garden. Unfortunately my photo skills are not always the best, but I hope you can all see what it is meant to show and have a go at handpollinating. As it has been mentioned that matching flowers can be a bit tricky, here are a few.
The basics are that you handpollinate a female flower with the tiny embryo fruit underneath with a male. You close both the evening before they are going to open naturally, to prevent them from opening. The following day, pick off the male alltogether, bring it to the female. Open both making sure no bees try to get to the flowers, pick off the petals of the male flower and brush it gently all around the centre of the female flower. You can actually see the pollen grains in the male flower. Afterwards close the female again and mark its stem, so that you know at harvest time which is the fruit with the pure seeds.
I was lucky to have a corresponding Sweet Meat female and male, both ready to open tomorrow and also the same on Thelma Sanders. Thelma also has two further females, but they are not yet ready for another day. Their flowers are greener and not quite full size yet. However there are no corresponding males on the plants for these two. Too bad, no doubt the bees will help out with pollen from the courgettes, which are also species cucurbita pepo same as Thelma, and we will hopefully get fruit, but no chance for another handpollination with these two.
Quote from: JanG on August 18, 2024, 09:47:24
Bean success has been mixed ........., and Red Swan, which is very beautiful. Thank you, Juliev.
I sowed mine very late in June and they are currently only just flowering. Such beautiful pink and white flowers indeed. And very healthy plants too. Thank you Juliev.
Thank you very much, Galina, for capturing so clearly the different stages of squash pollination for true seeds. That's perfect.
And I'm very pleased you have Red Swan successfully growing. It's always good to have some beans for later in the season.I sowed mine about as early as is reasonable (5th May) and they're past being good to eat now. One observation is that they are not quick to dry down for seed.
My earliest bean by quite a long way, both to produce snap beans and then dry pods for seed has been Black Valentine, (thank you, Markfield Rover) which I grew as a semi-runner up a four foot support. I've been harvesting seed for a couple of weeks or so. Definitely a good and easy doer.
Thank you Jan.
This is how the squashes looked today in the morning. First the Sweet Meat. Both the male and the female are bulging and would burst open, if it were not for the ties. I know I said thick wool, but yesterday I only had ordiniary DK to hand and it works too, just potentially could cut into the petals easier than thick wool.
I picked the male flower and pulled off its petals. Here it is (bottom right) ready to be 'painted' onto the centre of the female flower for pollen transfer.
The next photo shows the female all tied up again to prevent further pollen being brought in by bees. Note to slugs - stay away please!
And here are the Thelma Sanders. Both male and female bulging and would open were it not for the wool tie.
Male picked and opened. Pollen grains are visible ready to handpollinate the female.
Female tied up again. Both handpollinated Thelmas in the same photo.
Great photos. A perfect tutorial in the whole process. Now just to find two flowers at the right stage! 🤞
Good luck.
I'm wondering whether anyone else is as excited as I am by so ,any of the Seed Circle tomato varieties as I am.
Garrett's Girl Girl's Weird Thing keeps producing large beautiful striped fruit. It's very productive for a beefsteak type
Ruud's Grandma Viney's is interestingly coloured (I've seen it listed as Grandma Viney's Pink and Yellow) and absolutely enormous. I had one fruit which was 2lbs 1oz!
Markfield Rover's Seattle Best of All and Blaby Special are both highly productive classically mid-sized red tomatoes.
And Galina's Tim's Taste of Paradise just goes on and on producing small delicious yellow fruit
Ruud's Blue Beauty is very beautiful but for me not very productive. I wonder whether anyone else has found the same
And I love the dusky colouring on Garrett's Piglet Willie's French Black
I could mention others too. Such a rich variety of tomato fruits. I love them all!
I couldn't grow them all, still catching up with last year's and the year before. The Ambrosia Blue have just been outstanding, not so much blue as chocolate brown, after a 'blue' stage and such depth of flavour. Ditto Ambrosia Rose UBX. Yes Blaby always does well and tastes good too.
Quote from: galina on September 06, 2024, 09:52:57
I couldn't grow them all, still catching up with last year's and the year before. The Ambrosia Blue have just been outstanding, not so much blue as chocolate brown, after a 'blue' stage and such depth of flavour. Ditto Ambrosia Rose UBX which tastes fab. Yes Blaby always does well and tastes good too.
Quote from: galina on September 06, 2024, 09:52:57
I couldn't grow them all, still catching up with last year's and the year before. The Ambrosia Blue have just been outstanding, not so much blue as chocolate brown, after a 'blue' stage and such depth of flavour. Ditto Ambrosia Rose UBX. Yes Blaby always does well and tastes good too.
Yes, I couldn't grow them all either! Such a rich choice, and I wanted to grow a few from earlier years too, either to renew seed or because of fond memories.
Piglet Willie French Black tastes like we have had a glorious and languorous summer !
The season is advancing rapidly and I hope there's a lot of rewarding harvesting going on, alongside inevitably a few frustrations and disappointments.
Is everyone who has said they'd like to participate in the 2024 Seed Circle happy to work to an end of November deadline again? It means I should be able to redistribute and get the precious parcel out to you before the Christmas rush. Let me know if there's any problem with that.
So, we have in the Circle at present:
Juliev
Markfield Rover
Garrett
Vetivert
Ruud
JanG
Galina
Galina is hoping to be able to get seeds safely to the Circle but is aware she can't guarantee it. We very much hope all will go well without bureaucratic hitches. So when you're preparing seeds, please think in terms of six packets of each variety.
It would be really good to hear what seeds you might be thinking of sharing. I've put together a tentative list of my hopes. It's still very early to be certain with beans so my list is subject to change but so far it's this. I'll gradually add some details about the different varieties day by day.
Lettuce
Brune d'Hiver
Tomato
Artisan Gold Bumblebee
Black Plum
Blue Gold Berries
Dancing with Smurfs
Kumato
Kellogg's Breakfast
Beans possible
Coco Sophie
Cupidon
Faraday
Hamby
Kew Blue
Limka
Old Joe Clark
Quedlingberger Speck
Tennessee Cutshort
Trionfo Violetto
Pepper
Padron
Other
Papaver somniferum - pink peony flowered
Cerinthe Major Purpurascens
Coriander?
Dill?
Very much looking forward to hearing some possibles from the Circle
That's an excellent list, Jan! What did you think of Quedinburger Speck?
Unfortunately it's become apparent that I'm not really in a position to participate this year - at best I think I'll only have 2-3 new veg varieties to share.
I very much liked Quedlinburger Speck - I was given it with the wrong spelling (which I've repeated above but will hopefully get right in future) and with the information that it's dwarf. Once I'd realised that it was anything but dwarf and moved it, it did very well. Long tender pods which eventually dry down beautifully. Have you come across it or grown it?
I think that given your previous wonderful contributions to the Seed Circle, I'd be very happy for you to participate with your two or three new varieties. And of course seeds don't have to be new varieties. Often people are grateful to receive some which are relatively common or have been in the Seed Circle previously. A couple of my tomato varieties were received from the Seed Circle about five years ago I think. So I do hope you'll still feel able to join in.
Absolutely agree Jan. Two packets is the suggested number, as Jayb set the circle up all these years ago. With the background understanding that if one fails, there is still another left to participate with! That we have mostly surpassed that by a bountiful amount, does not mean we can only participate if we have many to share.
I hope to get all my packets across the water, but since there are no more guarantees, I may end up with fewer packets arriving than I intended also. Please Vetivert, do say that you will participate! You have more than 'paid it forward' in previous years with excellent seed and very tasty, new to us varieties we have come to love! Hope next year you will have more gardening time available again.
There are some lovely things on your proposed list, JanG. :)
Vetivert , I still have so many of your seeds to grow , still riding high on those! You will be prominent on my allotment for the foreseeable future and my chums too.
Question can i make some members happy with older seeds.I have to many variaties tomato and peppers to keep them vital.So i ask for help to keep the seeds fresh.
Peppers more than 2 years old are a problem, tomatoes at 5 to 8 years old are still viable. If the packets are a little bit larger to account for lower germination, slightly older seeds are ok.
I completely agree with Galina that peppers are much more of a problem than tomatoes. And a certain amount depends on conditions the seeds were kept in as well.
Personally, to help keep varieties going, I'm very happy to try to germinate some older seeds. If they don't germinate, nothing is lost. We can try to germinate them on damp kitchen roll or something like that, so that there's not even a risk of wasting compost.
Tomatoes should be easier. Quite old seed might well germinate. If you could mark which packets are older, ideally with the year if you know it, then that would be very acceptable. Thanks Ruud
Love a germination challenge me !
oke,i will send some of my older seeds.
Ruud, please add the year you saved them to the packets.
By the way, this does not apply to any commercial seed either. Because seed companies test and pack if seeds pass their germination tests. But the seed itself could already be years old when they get put into packets. Just that at that stage their older seed was still viable. So what I said above o n l y applies to home saved seed and, as Jan said, only if it was stored cool and dry in the meantime.
Generally, we take part in the seed circle with fresh seed saved this year, or with seed that is from last year if it had to be held over, not really with much older seed. But as Markfield Rover said, we love a bit of an experiment in addition to that.
I had an opportunity to have some seeds hand carried and posted for me. Had to be earlier varieties, but they have now arrived at JanG's. So we are all good. :sunny:
Lettuces Bologna and Pink
Runnerbean Celebration
Purple tomatillo
Tomatoes Alpatieva 905 A, Borgo Celano, De Pinto
Peas Sugar Lord (snap), Latvian Soup (shell), both tall, and shelling pea, crown pea Salmon Flowered
Beans Frank Barnett Cutshort, Ruth Bible both tall
More info and photos to follow.
Purple Tomatillo
Lettuce Bologna cos type
Crown pea Salmon Flowered
Runnerbean Celebration pink flowering, sets well in hot weather
It's a great selection, Galina, and wonderful that you managed to get the seeds safely carried and posted. The pink flowering runner bean looks very appealing. There is the more commercially available pink- flowered runner bean, Sunset, which I did grow many years ago, but Celebration looks a deeper, prettier pink from your photo. Crown pea salmon-flowered also looks lovely - two special features in one. And a lettuce called pink too. Pink is quite a theme in your selection!
The tomato varieties are all new to me. I look forward to hearing more - or finding out by growing.
A great start to the Circle. Thank you again.
Some brief notes and photos for some of the tomatoes I'm going to be including
Artisan Gold Bumblebee is a good-sized cherry tomato with attractive red and yellow striping. It is reasonably productive.Seed originally from a commercial source.
Black Plum is very productive. Seed originally from the Seed Circle (2019?)
Blue Gold Berries. I love the cherry tomatoes this produces. It's not as productive as some but I've fallen in love with the fruit. Seed originally from a swap
Dancing with Smurfs. Similarly a lovely looking dark cherry tomato. Seed originally from commercial source
Wonderful contributions as always folks, and many thanks for your kind words of encouragement.
It was easy to forget the suggestion is two packets of seeds, and I certainly didn't mean discourage anyone from participating if they want to contribute this number - I've got so accustomed to a theme of over-abundance due to our avid seed-saving over the years :)
JanG, I did grow Quedlinburger Speck (which I also managed to spell in a unique way :drunken_smilie: ) last summer. They were stringless and the pod walls were soft - something I was searching for as a candidate in a pending breeding project. I didn't get to taste any though! Did you?
For circle contributions I'm hoping to add:
Tomato, Dreadnought;
Celery, Chinese Pink;
Rakkyo bulbs;
and a few peas and beans, varieties TBC.
Anyone have a clue how to clean phacelia seed?
Great that you're alongside ,Vetivert. Sounds like a fully generous contribution but, as you say, two is what we ask for so anyone is welcome another year who can contribute two or three varieties.
Can you say a bit about Rakkyo bulbs?
I did sample Quedlinburger Speck (can't write it without checking the spelling now!). It was a good snap bean when young. I didn't get to try it when it was more mature so can't vouch for how long it stays tender, but I was certainly struck by how nicely it dried down.
I've no idea about Phacelia cleaning. I imagine there's a lot of dry husk to somehow get rid of. I have a similar challenge with hemp.
Climbing French Bean Frank Barnett Cutshort.
My source was MacMex via Vetivert (thank you for sharing). A bean from Kentucky, cutshort refers to the beans that are squashed so tightly into their pods, that the ends square off. Clearly some of the beans in my photo are almost rectangular. https://www.heirlooms.org/store/p21/Frank_Barnett_Cut-Short.html
MacMex on his seedsaving group pages, has a chapter on this bean too. In one of his posts, he makes a very poignant statement about sharing seeds, also the reason why he has sent samples to be grown and shared in Europe too. "This is a very very nice variety. I'd say my seed stock had a close brush with extinction this year. This is a good illustration of why it's so good to share seed with others. It spreads it around and is a way to insure against permanent loss." https://seedsavingnetwork.proboards.com/thread/569/frank-barnetts-pole-bean-seed
Mine were early, a typical Appalachian bean, that grows bean seeds inside the pods at the same time as the pods themselves develop. Very different from the green beans we are used to, where the seeds develop when the pods themselves are past their best for fresh eating. These bean pods get eaten together with their beanies inside. They will stay tender until the beans inside are practically mature enough to shell for seed saving. A different bean, which makes for a more substantial eating experience, than our more juicy green bean pods or our dried and reconstituted beans. This is a bit like having the best of both types in one.
Borgo Celano tomato. Indeterminate, fairly short plants that definitely need staking. Don't sideshoot, treat more like determinate varieties. https://bountyhunterseeds.com/product/borgo-celano-tomato/
My source was a seedsaving friend from Maine, USA. Her family roots are Italian. The Bologna lettuce is also from her originally.
My photo of the group shows some yellow sunburn spots, when we had the heatwave of 30C plus for several weeks, but the photo of the single tomato shows it off in all its beauty.
An excellent salad tomato, but just as good for sauce. I have halved a few pounds and put them into the freezer, as these make very tasty additions to a cooked breakfast with egg and bacon, just put in the pan from frozen, when the eggs go in and the bacon is starting to brown.
Forgot to say, there is a video on Borgo Celano https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QA-jMgzt4E
Also, sorry Vetivert haven't ever saved phacelia seeds.
I'd like to echo everything Galina has said about the appealing and interesting characteristics of Appalachian beans, having recently become aware of them through the generous sharing of Macmex and Vetivert.
One of the bean varieties I'm aiming to add is another cutshort, Tennessee Cutshort. In fact it's cutshort in name only as the seed shape isn't as square as Galina's Frank Barnett Cutshort, but it's Appalachian and the other characteristics still apply. It can be eaten as a tender snap bean or left until the pods swell and then eaten with more fully developed beans inside.
Tennessee Cutshort
What does RC mean on your photo JanG please? Lovely bean to look forward to.
Lettuce Pink.
I am afraid I simply do not recall where I got the seeds from originally, or who to credit with developing this variety. I have had the seeds for a very long time and it is my fault for not keeping better records. It was a private seed exchange, not a commercial packet, which doesn't mean that it could not have come from a commercial packet and then saved by my donor. If it was from you or you know who shared these seeds, please let me know. May have been from JayB's and Jeannine's amazing seed parcel.
A lovely lettuce, very soft and buttery, makes nice heads quickly and due to its colour, fewer problems with slugs.
PS, note to self, do a bit of weeding before taking photos :drunken_smilie:
Snap Pea Sugar Lord
This was the variety that was rescued by Goodlife, a member of many past seed circles with her very green fingers, from a 13 year old seed packet! Even the original seed company Marshalls did no longer carry them. But many people had been asking for Sugar Lord on this and on other boards and regretting that it was no longer available. So I make no excuses for offering these again. This year I also grew Sugar Snap. Sugar Lord is taller and was much higher yielding and the sweet snap pods were slightly larger. Definitely needs staking, but the harvest window is long, so that initial effort is well worth it.
Here is the description and the story of its rescue. It has not been offered since in Britain or elsewhere, although this year I have found it on offer to commercial growers in Zimbabwe of all places!
https://seedsaverscircle.org/seed-circle/a4a-seed-saver-group-2014/
Scroll about halfway down the page
https://seedcogroup.com/zw/vegetables/sc-partners/super-sugar-snap-sugar-lord/
More echoes from the past of this seed circle. Robert Brenchley send us the Latvian Soup pea, original source HSL. This is a very early shelling or drying pea. Pods are fairly small but there were hundreds of them on my plants. A soup pea from Latvia, and apparently traditionally eaten with fried pork and onion. But they are just as good, plain shelled. They are called peleks zirnis in Latvia, which means grey pea. This is a little confusing because that name is also given to the much larger Latvian Christmas pea (also HSL). A tall fast growing plant with huge harvests. The peas when freshly shelled are green and dry to brown.
https://www.readkong.com/page/heritage-seed-library-rare-and-unique-heritage-varieties-5784366
https://seedsaverscircle.org/seed-circle/seed-parcel-2013-2/
Quote from: galina on October 07, 2024, 09:20:53
What does RC mean on your photo JanG please? Lovely bean to look forward to.
The RC means Russell Crow from who I received the seeds. Think the question mark is because when I labelled the photo I wasn't sure whether the photo showed the orignals I had from him or the ones I had grown on.
Great notes and photos, Galina. I've grown Sugar Lord in the past many years ago and can vouch for how good it is. It's so very well worth keeping it in circulation. The lettuce Pink looks very appealing too. I like a nice butterhead!
Alpatieva 905A
A bright red small beefsteak tomato on compact vines with rugose foliage, very tasty and early. Received from Twoflower in the 2011 seed circle.
https://seedsaverscircle.org/seed-parcel-2011-main/
https://victoryseeds.com/products/alpatieva-905a-tomato
Tatianas Tomatobase gives more information on its history. https://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Alpatieva_905A
History
Old Russian variety, developed by VNIISSOK from a cross Shtambovyi Alpatieva 905 X Bizon 639. Released in 1950.
PI 283904. Donated to the USDA in 1962 from the former Soviet Union.
First offered in Seed Savers Yearbook in 2008 by Andrey Baranovski of Minsk, Belarus (BELR BA A).
With apologies to MR and Ruud for so many seed circle repeats, which you of course have already.
Thank you for so much information, the seeds from our circle I share with others so all seeds are appreciated. I will put up a list next week , I am amazed we rarely if ever duplicate in the same year. I am particularly pleased with one of three tomatoes ,Silvery Fir Leaf great taste.
Quote from: markfield rover on October 10, 2024, 18:10:31
Thank you for so much information, the seeds from our circle I share with others so all seeds are appreciated. I will put up a list next week , I am amazed we rarely if ever duplicate in the same year. I am particularly pleased with one of three tomatoes ,Silvery Fir Leaf great taste.
I agree that it's good to have repeats after a few years. It puts fresh seeds into circulation.We can't all grow every variety every year (!) so to have fresh seed of a particular variety is often greatly appreciated.
Sme notes and photos for some of the beans I'm hoping to contribute:
Coco Sophie
I found this bean a delight this year. My seeds came from a swap but were originally from Real Seeds I believe. It has round white beans excellent dried. I didn't eat it as snap but believe it's good when young, but it's great as a shelled bean and I imagine could also be eaten Appalachian-style as a demi-sec. It remained very healthy and dried beautifully with no spoilt seeds
Cupidon and Faraday
I grew both of these as part of a trial of small scale commercial varieties. They are both dwarf and highly productive of thin filet-type snap beans. I left both of them a little too long before harvesting the dried beans as I was away. Faraday which is white seeded suffered more mould and discoloured seeds than Cupidon.
Hamby
This was a gift via Vetivert from George McLaughlin who keeps Green Country Seed Savers forum and grows in eastern US. Some of his Appalachian/Kentucky type beans didn't cope very well with a less than ideal growing season but Hamby was excellent, producing flattish snap beans which remained tender for a good amount of time and dried down well producing attractive healthy brown seeds.
Kew Blue and Trionfo Violetto
Both of these are purple podded varieties. There is a long and very detailed description of Kew Blue by Rebsie Fairholm here. http://daughterofthesoil.blogspot.com/2007/02/heritage-vegetable-review-climbing-bean.html She raves about Kew Blue and thinks Trionfo Violetto is similar but inferior. I enjoyed them both. Trionfo Violetto was later for me. Kew Blue is very early. Both are prolific and good as snap beans and dry down very well too. My seeds for Kew Blue originally came from Beans and Herbs but Heritage Seed Library holds it too. There is little known history except that HSL say that it was originally from Kew Gardens. I received Trionfo Violetto as a swap but the seeds were originally from Deaflora. https://deaflora.de/Shop/Bohnen/Neu--Stangenbohne
All look so beguiling.
. A quick tasting note for Silvery Fir Leaf tomato , if there ever was a tomato more suited for a BLT I have yet to taste it!
I grew it for a couple of years, but didn't rate it, ( as I no longer grow it) but never put it in a bacon sandwich, so maybe missed out!
Quote from: markfield rover on October 17, 2024, 14:00:28
All look so beguiling.
. A quick tasting note for Silvery Fir Leaf tomato , if there ever was a tomato more suited for a BLT I have yet to taste it!
Might this be one you're thinking of contributing? 🙏
For any non-meat-eaters among us, I think you have a duty to try it in a range of vegetarian sandwiches too! Or perhaps sdaddad has done that already?
Yes one for the circle ! It is also good on toast. An all rounder.
Is this the same tomato MR or another with a similar name? Short, 'carrot leafed' plant with fairly large fruit? https://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Silvery_Fir_Tree
Lovely selection JanG. I can confirm all you say about Hamby.
galina yes , I've checked label/records and you are right it is Silvery Fir Tree. Thank you for the clarification.
The origin of Kew Blue is indeed Kew Gardens, who gave it to HSL, from where it was retailed by Pippa Rosen of Beans and Herbs. Also now retailed by several USA and Canadian seed vendors, via the Seed Ambassadors trips, who visited many European seed conservancies and collected seeds. A success story of getting a very rare variety back into production and commerce. https://www.seedambassadors.org/about-us/
This is what Adaptive Seeds say, the seed company that the seed ambassadors started after their seed collection trips. "Deep purple pods, stems and leaves. Semi-flat beans with excellent raw flavor. Thrives in cool, wet weather and germinates well in the cold spring ground. Pods set early and continuously up the vines. Seeds dry down quick before the rains come. One of our highest yielding pole beans, it was a staple crop during our time as fresh market farmers. Originally from the Kew Royal Botanic Gardens, we received this variety in 2007 from the Heritage Seed Library, in England." https://www.adaptiveseeds.com/product/vegetables/beans/pole-snap-bean-kew-blue-organic/
Thank you for this further information, Galina. I can illustrate the semi-flatness of the pods with this photo comparing the pods of Kew Blue and Trionfo Violetto.
my list sofar for the seed saving circle:tomatoes,Pample mousse du grand pere
Bison
Sakharnyi Zheltyi
Boxcar willie
Charborovsky
Seftali
Balikesin Kivircik
sweet peper: Chilhuacle negro
Hot peper:Dong Xuan market
Goathorn
Hero
Peach tepin x Lemon drop
Phrik key nu
Peppedew malawi
This list will be bigger wenn i sorted out the rest of my seeds.
Great to have your list, ruud. Thank you.
Some Turkish varieties from your travels I think, for example Sakharnyi Zheltyi? Can you say what kind of tomato that is?
I shall be very happy to grow Chilhuacle Negro again.
I am waiting for Bob and Mary cfb to dry , meanwhile the following are further down the line.
Climbing French Beans....Hodgkin...Romanian...Kentucky Wonder....
Dwarf French Beans .. Dior ....Nautica and Elba.
Peas... American Wonder ....Sankia and Sutton's Phenomenon.
Tomatoes....Essex Wonder ... Silvery Fir Tree and Scotland Yellow.
Dragons Tongue Oriental Greens.
Few of the above were tasted as I was worried as to whether the yields were going to suffer due to bugs, beasties and cold nights. Sutton's Phenomenon pea struggled not many pods so a low count , but I know they will be in safe hands.
https://www.tomatofifou.com/en/produit/sakharnyi-zheltyi/
Quote from: markfield rover on October 23, 2024, 09:32:18
I am waiting for Bob and Mary cfb to dry , meanwhile the following are further down the line.
Climbing French Beans....Hodgkin...Romanian...Kentucky Wonder....
Dwarf French Beans .. Dior ....Nautica and Elba.
Peas... American Wonder ....Sankia and Sutton's Phenomenon.
Tomatoes....Essex Wonder ... Silvery Fir Tree and Scotland Yellow.
Dragons Tongue Oriental Greens.
Few of the above were tasted as I was worried as to whether the yields were going to suffer due to bugs, beasties and cold nights. Sutton's Phenomenon pea struggled not many pods so a low count , but I know they will be in safe hands.
Great list, MR. They are nearly all new to me. I have had my eye on Bob and Mary for some time. I believe it's an HSL variety, but I've never managed to choose it. All very exciting. Thank you.
Bob and Mary was from HSL, a yellow podded tall bean for fresh pod use. Used to be common in Canada from where it comes originally, but now very rare there too.
Yes, Bob and Mary from the HSL , very prolific strong plants. I'll grow it to eat next year !! Potentially on my list of top five beans along with Black Valentine , although the also sound like Penny Dreadfuls .
:toothy10: Ha Ha Ha, had to look up what Penny Dreadfuls are.
November is with us. How is everyone doing?
I think we still need to hear from Juliev and Garrett as to the varieties they're hoping to contribute but I thought I would gather together the provisional lists (not provisional in the case of Galina as they are amazingly already with me!) of Ruud, Galina, Vetivert, Markfield Rover and me. It's always exciting at this point to begin to see the wonderful range in prospect.
Galina
Pea
Sugar Lord
Crown pea Salmon Flowered
Latvian Soup Pea
Climbing French bean
Ruth Bible
Frank Barnett Cutshort
Tomato
De Pinto
Borgo Celano
Alpatieva 905A
Lettuce
Pink
Bologna
Purple tomatillo
Runner bean
Celebration
Markfield Rover
Climbing French bean
Bob and Mary
Hodgkin
Romanian
Kentucky Wonder
Dwarf French Beans
Dior
Nautica
Elba.
Peas
American Wonder
Sankia
Sutton's Phenomenon.
Tomatoes
Essex Wonder
Silvery Fir Tree
Scotland Yellow.
Oriental Greens
Dragons Tongue.
Vetivert
Tomato
Dreadnought
Celery
Chinese Pink
Perennial onion
Rakkyo bulbs
Peas and beans
TBC
Ruud
Tomato
Pample mousse du grand pere
Bison
Sakharnyi Zheltyi
Boxcar willie
Charborovsky
Seftali
Balikesin Kivircik
Sweet pepper
Chilhuacle negro
Chilli pepper
Dong Xuan market
Goathorn
Hero
Peach tepin x Lemon drop
Phrik key nu
Peppedew malawi
Jang
Lettuce
Brune d'Hiver
Tomato
Artisan Gold Bumblebee
Black Plum
Blue Gold Berries
Dancing with Smurfs
Kumato
Kellogg's Breakfast
Climbing French beans
Coco Sophie
Hamby
Kew Blue
Limka
Quedlingberger Speck
Tennessee Cutshort
Trionfo Violetto
Dwarf French beans
Cupidon
Faraday
Semi French bean
Old Joe Clark
Pepper
Padron
Other
Papaver somniferum - pink peony flowered
Cerinthe Major Purpurascens
Coriander?
Dill?
I am way too excited! Looking fabulous. Thanks for the update JanG .
Hi all, I've been drying my seeds and this is a provisional list. I'll upload pictures and impressions once I've bagged everything.
Tomatoes:
Darby Stripe (red/orange striped cherry)
Gobstopper (translucent yellow cherry)
Mango Lassi (red cherry)
Ron's Carbon Copy (purple cherry)
Sweet pepper Mini Bell Chocolate: a small, bushy sweet pepper with dark skin
Cucumber Miniature White
CFB: Tunny bean (red and cream dry bean)
CFB: Golden Gate (yellow romano type pod bean)
Hollyhock Halo Red
Dierama Pulcherrimum Blackcurrant Bells
I was hoping to have more beans, but l had a bit of a disaster. I'd bought some new varieties from Beans & Herbs, but when they grew I realised that a couple of varieties hadn't been isolated by the grower last year and they'd obviously crossed with a borlotti bean. I don't want to pass on any dubious seed, so I saved all the beans that grew true to type and I'll try again next year. Hopefully, I'll be able to clean them up and see if I have the correct beans next season.
That's great, Garrett. Another group of interesting tomatoes. Nice also to have the Dierama seed. I grew these many years ago; they're magnificent plants, lovely arching over a pond. Mine faded away gradually so I shall be very pleased to be able to start one or two more off.
Your bean experience is very disappointing and rather surprising from a commercial supplier. Have you got in touch with them?
Some notes on more of my bean varieties:
Limka
This is a climbing, flat green snap bean as is Hamby. It's early to produce beans. White seeds.
Old Joe Clark
Also known as Peanut bean as the seeds can be seen as resembling peanuts. There are two tones of seeds, darker and lighter pink. It is a semi runner; comes early and is productive. Good as a snap bean and also dried.
Quedlinburger Speck
A climbing productive bean. My seed came from a swap and originally from Deaflora. Deaflora writes, "This bean never, I mean really never, becomes tough and never forms strings. Whether young or very thick, that is, when the bean kernels have already formed inside, it is always tender and delicious. I know of very few varieties that can do that". The pods are large and round.
Tennessee Cutshort
Another productive climbing bean. It's not a classic cutshort in that the seeds are quite rounded. As well as being a good snap bean it can be eaten when the beans have already swollen inside its pods.
I thought about contacting Beans & Herbs, but I realised that I'm unlikely to buy from them again so chalked it up to experience. I find that buying seeds is often a lottery and I've had incorrect varieties from various companies ranging from Unwins, Thompson & Morgan and Premier Seeds. The quality from the seed circle is often superior to anything available at retail.
I'm going to try to clean up these two varieties, Coco Bicolour and Deb's Creek, so that'll be a little project for me next year. The beans which do appear to be true to type are of excellent quality and both were highly productive.
Great offer Garrett, looking forward to growing these.
It happens that phaseolus vulgaris beans cross. The crossing rate is about 5% and some varieties are more prone to it than others. There is no cleaning up necessary, the ones that have the correct looking seed, should be right, unless you also had a rare accidental cross. Unfortunately, the seed coat is maternal material, so there is no way of knowing beforehand that a cross has occurred inside a seed. Sorry you were so disappointed, as this is one of the very few seed outlets that offers rare varieties in Britain outside of the HSL. My first ever bean swap was with the owner of Beans and Herbs and she is was an experienced seed saver for HSL, long before she opened her own seed shop. So it is rare to have a cross, but not outside of expectation.
Jang and myself have been growing out a cross from a USA seed outlet for fun, now just harvested F4 seeds. And it has been fun to observe how from a cross new varieties develop. It happens in other seed companies too. And it has certainly happened to me.
It happens with beans, but nevertheless the general consensus (including the seed guardian rules for HSL) remains, that French beans do not need to be isolated, but that runnerbeans and broad beans do. Does this make it any better?
I am confident that the beans I've saved will be true, but I didn't want to share them yet just in case they're not. I want another season to double check.
I also had some rogue grow outs from other sources,. Some of my Borlotti beans were a random dark navy with light spots and the Meuch pods grew solid purple, not their usual mottled marking, plus the beans reassemble the Tiger bean. In each case, the parent seed I grew looked perfect.
Hello everyone
So many wonderful varieties to be shared again! :blob7:
Here is my provisional list:
Tomatoes:
garnet
sunfired flare
Winter squash:
desert spirit landrace
Sussex flax (linseed)
Peas:
Mr Bound
Boddington
DFB:
Mor Kristin
Montezuma
Wieringer Bohne
CFB: TBC
I grew many of the seeds that were shared last year, it was wonderful! I have learned a lot about seed saving as well, managing to save seeds for many crops (most of them as populations rather than pure varieties).
JanG, Bumblebee is my son's favourite tomato. He is my tomato master taster. I can grow whatever I want as long as I grow Bumblebee!
Garrett, I share your disappointment with the crossed/mixed up seeds. I also had a few that didn't grow out as expected. Having said that, like Galina mentioned, growing out the crosses is very exciting!
Thank you for your excellent list of contributions, juliev. Our final parcel will again be a delight.
It's great have Garrett's tribute to the quality of the seeds in the Circle and I too am grateful for the care taken to keep varieties as true as is reasonably possible.
I know the end of November is quite a tight deadline, including for beans which of course need to be dry and then frozen for a few days to eliminate any weevil. If any of us might be pushed for time to give bean seeds their necessary days in the freezer, can we just mark them or add a note here that they should be frozen on receipt. I speak as someone who (many years ago) sent bean seeds to US in a swap and sent a lively population of weevils with them which had clearly had time to incubate nicely in transit!
Sorted out some other seeds to contribute:blue aztec corn
turkish lettuce yedikule 5701
Endive
pumpkin Mr.wrinkles
I only have to wait for my beans now,if they are ready to come out of the fridge.I will add them to my list.
I have to make one or two changes to the varieties I hoped to contribute. Somehow I managed to overlook saving seeds from Kellogg's Breakfast. Instead I sold be able to contribute seeds of a Serbian sweet pepper called Ekstaza. I also haven't managed to gather enough seeds of Cerinthe major purpurascens but instead I will include plenty of seed of sweet rocket (Hesperis matronalis).
Some notes and photos for my tomato varieties.
Black Plum
This variety was donated to the 2018 Seed Circle by Galina. It's an excellent productive brownish plum tomato. Apologies to Galina for donating two of her original contributions this year. As the seed was five years old I wanted to grow this and Kumato again. So I will also quote Galina in 2018, "I received this variety from a very active seedsaver, Ulrike Paradine, in one of my first ever seed swaps". Petra classes the variety as determinate but I had forgotten that and grew them very successfully as indeterminate. She also cites an interesting Your Tube video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdWcHIfd7eY.
Blue Gold Berries
This is a Brad Gates cherry variety. It's not the most productive variety but I love the gold and purplish colouring and the flavour is very good too. It produces steadily especially quite late in the season. I received it originally in a swap
Artisan Gold Bumblebee
Another one I love for its colouring. Again it's not super-productive but steadily produces very attractive and fine tasting cherry red and gold fruit
Dancing with Smurfs
This is a Tom Wagner variety apparently named after the US TV series South Park. It's an attractive cherry with dark shoulders bursting with anthocyanin. Taste very good
Kumato
This is Galina's other donation featured in my contributions, again from the 2018 seed circle. It has chocolate brown colouru=ing, was apparently developed in Spain and lasts amazingly well in good condition either on the plant or off. I happened to grow it next. To Garrett's Piglet Willie French Black and they are fairly similar in colouring, shape and general growth. It has its own Wikipedia entry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumato
Fresh seeds is absolutely fine Jang. It is actually welcome. It allows me to delay my 'planned grow out date' and extend the timeframe nearer to 'viability may drop - must grow out now' date. And with tomatoes, the former for me is six years or more frequent for favourite varieties and the latter is ten years.
As it happens, I have also grown Black Plum this year, as it is a favourite, but not Kumato. If I am pushed for space in 2025, with your seeds, Kumato can now safely wait for another year or two. But because it is also a really good slicing tomato with strong and deep flavour, chances are it will be grown next year anyway.
Quote from: JanG on October 23, 2024, 07:08:08
Some Turkish varieties from your travels I think, for example Sakharnyi Zheltyi? Can you say what kind of tomato that is?
Sorry to but in, but they are Russian not Turkish. https://www.tomatofifou.com/en/produit/sakharnyi-zheltyi/
Thanks Galina. Looks good. Early and huge!
I have some Japanese bunching onion seeds to add, of the 'Red Beard' variety.
I had one plant from a couple of years ago, it's established itself on the plot, divided many times and this year provided me with a seed crop. This hasn't appeared to affect the clump which continues to grow. I know you're meant to have at least dozens of onions for seed to maintain genetic vigour, but let's see how these fare. In the germination test they were all up in a flash.
They also flowered last year; I didn't collect the seeds but I'm fairly certain some pollen crossed with the Shimonita, which I shared last year, as some of this year's Shimonita have red stems! Though only a few.
Originally from Real Seeds but they haven't stocked them in a few years.
That sounds a really interesting and valuable addition,Vetivert. Do you find Shimonita can develop a perennial habit too?
I have a possible contribution with genetic vigour question marks too. I have grown Double Red sweetcorn (originally from Real Seeds) from two different batches of seed. There were forty plants in my patch, whereas for genetic breadth and vigour rather more are recommended. On the other hand, the fact that the seed was from two different batches grown in different years should contribute to their gene bank I believe. Perhaps if I include the seeds but with that warning. Others might be able to say more about the likelihood of any diminution of vigour.
I also have seeds of Stonor's Most Prolific, a tomato from HSL, pak choi and an ornamental allium, nodding onion, Allium cernuum.
I hope everyone's seed gathering and sorting is going well. Excitement mounts!
these are the beans i send with the other seeds:Marie-louise
Lazy housewife
Rosaweisse
all three are polebeans.
There have been problems with accessing A4A over the last couple of days and I've emailed circle members separately in case the problems persist. Mercifully they have been fixed for which many thanks.
I have one final contribution to make to the circle. Last season we were aware that the developer of many fine lettuce varieties, Frank Morton, was retiring. There was concern that some of his varieties might fade out of circulation. I had bought several directly from his company back in, I think, 2018. One of these, Mayan Jaguar, successfully germinated this last season so I have seed ready to share. I haven't got a photo but this is an internet image
I spoke too soon when I wrote 'one final'. I think this really is the final final!
I have gathered seeds of agretti, otherwise known as Salsola soda. If you haven't come across it, it's a bit like samphire, kind of succulent and slightly salty.A common name is saltwort. It can be eaten fresh as a salad ingredient or very lightly cooked and is good with spaghetti etc.
The seed has to be very fresh and even then germination is certainly not 100%. I love it, and for me it now self-seeds every year in my polytunnel. You can grow it out of doors as well. Early in the season I think it would benefit from some protection. Once you have it you can keep harvesting fresh seed each year but quite a lot of the seed on sale isn't fresh enough to be any use. I had good seed eventually from Franchi which they sent out within a fairy short window I think. I'm hoping my seed will be good. Real Seeds also supply it. Photo is internet
Both are going to be treasured Jan, thank you. Looking forward to these.
Quote from: JanG on November 20, 2024, 07:00:21
Do you find Shimonita can develop a perennial habit too?
Unlike Red Beard, Shimonita does not split into mulitple bulbs but remains singular. I would presume it dies after flowering - I don't know for certain, as after they set ripe seed I pulled up the lot.
I'm in awe of the contributions this year :drunken_smilie:
I'll be adding Corée de Sang, which I received from Guy Dirix. It's a vigourous climber of the shelling/drying type.
https://belleepoquemeise.be/le-roi-du-potager/coree-de-san/
I have just noticed that my tree peony has beautiful fat ripe pods , would anyone like 2/3 seeds ?
Thank you for the offer. Just wondering what colour the flowers on your tree peony are?
I was delighted to receive two lovely fat packages of seeds today, one from Garrett and one from Juliev.Thank you both very much for the generosity of the contributions and for the care which had gone into their preparation
Re:tree peony , sorry to be so vague and if I find the label I will update( or when it flowers) I think yellow , I do remember buying it from a beautiful walled garden nursery just outside Hay on Wye.
Hot footing it to the Post Office ......
Thank you MR. Just checked and they are fully hardy here too. Looking forward to tree peony. :sunny:
Delighted to report, Markfield Rover, that your perfectly packaged parcel has just safely arrived too. Royal Mail can't be faulted on its efficiency on this one!
Only two packages to go, Jan. Hope they arrive soon too.
Thank you for the update, super quick delivery.
Quote from: juliev on November 04, 2024, 11:11:23Tomatoes:
garnet
sunfired flare
Winter squash:
desert spirit landrace
Juliev, I'm intrigued by these two varieties. I haven't come across either of them before. Googling has established that they were both bred by Wild Mountain Seed in Colorado and both are offered by Vital Seeds. I'd be interested to know what your source was and how well they grew for you. They both look amazing.
It is a cucurbita maxima squash landrace, so should do fine in UK. I quote"....the Desert Spirit has many varieties in its heritage, including Buttercup, our beloved Oregon Homestead Sweet Meat and others." I agree an exciting addition, thank you Juliev.
https://vitalseeds.co.uk/product/winter-squash-desert-spirit-landrace-organic-new-for-2023/
An update for the Circle. All UK seeds plus Galina's have now safely arrived - thank you Vetivert. The only parcel not with me is Ruud's from the Netherlands which was posted on Monday.
Keep fingers crossed for a smooth and rapid passage.As soon as it arrives I'll hope to do a fairly rapid turn around and despatch.
Oh Wow! Look at this.
https://www.seedsofscotland.com/products/winter-squash-desert-spirit-landrace#:~:text=Cucurbita%20maxima%20%2D%20approximately%2012%20seeds,which%20have%20a%20wonderful%20taste.
" A reliable harvest from plants grown outside in the Highlands. " And yes, they do mean the highlands in Scotland! I think this answers your question Jang.
Excellent news, hope the last package will come very fast too. Thank you Jang.
Quote from: galina on December 04, 2024, 15:02:40" A reliable harvest from plants grown outside in the Highlands. " And yes, they do mean the highlands in Scotland! I think this answers your question Jang.
Let's hope they grew as well as that for Juliev. I had seen the rather remarkable pictures and was hoping to hear whether Julie's experiences were comparable. I was also guessing that she had bought the seeds from Vital Seeds but wanted to check.
Certainly seems an exciting and very promising landrace.
This is impressive too!
Hello everyone,
The tomato Sunfired flare is from Vital Seeds. It grew well in the small polytunnel. Very pretty, similar to Blue beauty.
I have two sources of seeds for the Desert Spirit landrace (Vital Seeds and Seeds of Scotland). I've been working on my own squash population so was very excited to see what a "finished" landrace would be like. They grew very well from direct seeding. I grow most of my squashes direct, no watering or any special treatment apart from hand-pollinating.
The jury is still out on its performance in the kitchen... They were very very dry/starchy (extremely so). They made fabulous gnocchi but a grainy unpleasant soup. Quite chesnut-y but not the best we've had. I still have two in storage. I'm hoping that some of the starch will have converted into sugars... We'll see.
Family photo to show phenotypes, 4 plants in total (I'm curious to see what will show up in future generations). 3 fruits were hand-pollinated using as many male flowers I could find for diversity.
So they appear to have been selected for dense, dry, chestnutty flesh. Hope the last two will be much sweeter after a few more weeks or months of storage. Lovely to see the family photo of all the different appearances Juliev.
How would you rate them in comparison with Buttercup, Queensland Blue or Sibley if you have grown any of these?
Quote from: juliev on December 05, 2024, 09:39:40Hello everyone,
The tomato Sunfired flare is from Vital Seeds. It grew well in the small polytunnel. Very pretty, similar to Blue beauty.
I have two sources of seeds for the Desert Spirit landrace (Vital Seeds and Seeds of Scotland). I've been working on my own squash population so was very excited to see what a "finished" landrace would be like. They grew very well from direct seeding. I grow most of my squashes direct, no watering or any special treatment apart from hand-pollinating.
The jury is still out on its performance in the kitchen... They were very very dry/starchy (extremely so). They made fabulous gnocchi but a grainy unpleasant soup. Quite chesnut-y but not the best we've had. I still have two in storage. I'm hoping that some of the starch will have converted into sugars... We'll see.
Family photo to show phenotypes, 4 plants in total (I'm curious to see what will show up in future generations). 3 fruits were hand-pollinated using as many male flowers I could find for diversity.
That's really interesting and great to have your photos. It will indeed be interesting to see how much variation occurs over subsequent generations.It looks like you have four phenotypes from four plants and we don't know how many phenotypes there is potential for. With up to six more seed circle members growing them we should between us be able to get quite a broad idea of what they offer.
Did you detect any difference in flavour or texture in the different types? I guess they were fairly young when you ate them.
I'd like to put out a plea for notes - and photos if you have them - on the varieties you have sent to the circle. I shall start compiling the database in the next couple of days and will put on as much information as I can gather. I'm quite happy to sort out any info which is available on the internet but it's particular important, to my mind, to know where you sourced the seed so that its lineage can be traced. Also it's great to have personal observations and experiences.
Thank you, Galina, for your full and detailed notes and for the photos which have now thankfully been restored following the A4A update.I look forward to some interesting information from others. 🙏🏼🙏🏼
Quote from: JanG on December 05, 2024, 16:44:12Did you detect any difference in flavour or texture in the different types? I guess they were fairly young when you ate them.
For which thank you Juliev. Knowing that they will taste better later, but still extracting seeds from not just the one, but three for the circle, is very appreciated.
Alright... taste test time... (I'm very dedicated :tongue3: )
I cut open a Desert Spirit Landrace (the first fruit from all the plants, had time to mature fully and is cured by now), a dark green one that looks like a Buttercup without a cup? (It is either a buttercup or a buttercup crossed with a similar variety) and a Rouge Vif d'Etampes (which was roasted in a different dish because it is very watery).
As expected, RVE was a watery mess (but will turn into delicious soup).
DSL was very sweet (too sweet), a little chestnutty, still a bit grainy/pasty. "cloying" was DH's comment.
Buttercup(?) was very flavourful, great balance of chestnut and sweetness, smooth and creamy. Favourite all round.
Taste test photo, from left to right: Buttercup(?), Desert Spirit Landrace, Rouge Vif d'Etampes.
Overall:
DSL is an easy-going variety for the garden. The fruits are a good size and visually attractive (bonus points for the diversity), the seed cavity is small.
I'm planning to grow two patches next year, one "pure" to see the diversity and one to mix it with our favourites (Buttercup, Marina di Chioggia, Blue Kuri, Crown Prince, Uchiki Kuri...)to hopefully fine-tune the flavour and texture.
Quote from: JanG on December 05, 2024, 16:44:12Did you detect any difference in flavour or texture in the different types? I guess they were fairly young when you ate them.
They were fairly similar, the smallest wasn't as dry as the other two but it was the last fruit to form.
Tomatoes:
Garnet, Thompson and Morgan
Sunfired Flare, Vital Seeds, very pretty, grew well in the polytunnel.
Winter squash:
Desert Spirit Landrace, Vital Seeds and Seeds of Scotland
Sussex flax (linseed), originally from Real Seeds
Peas:
Mr Bound, Incredible Seed Library, tall variety, quite late to dry out
Boddington, Incredible Seed Library, tall variety
DFB:
Mor Kristin, Beans and Herbs
Montezuma, Incredible Seed Library. Listed as tall bush/semi climbers but I have grown them without support for two years and they didn't look any taller than their neighbours.
Wieringer Bohne, Beans and Herbs
CFB:
Bonne Bouche, Incredible Seed Library
Tiger Bean, Beans and Herbs
Montegusto, Thompson and Morgan
All the peas and beans listed were direct seeded and left to get on with it until harvest.
ps: I should probably add that precious seeds get a bit more TLC... :toothy10:
That's great, Juliev. Thanks for the very helpful info on your seed sources. The Incredible Seed Library is new to me and does indeed seem incredible. It's difficult to know how they gather enough seeds to supply all takers or perhaps I've missed something. It's wonderful that they can succeed in such a worthwhile endeavour.
I've grown a variety called Montezuma's Red which came from HSL. I'm guessing that it's the same and the Red has been dropped at some point. I grew it as a semi so interested that you found it worked as dwarf. Lovely deep red seeds.
Great reporting on the taste test too. :happy7: It's interesting that Desert Spirit Landrace continues to be a bit grainy. Vital Seeds says that Buttercup and Oregon Homestead Sweetmeat were among the parents of the landrace and they're both good tasty varieties. I'm wondering where the less appealing texture comes from and why a more grainy variety was included.
https://jerrasgarden.myshopify.com/cdn/shop/products/dragontonguemustard1.jpg?v=1675086784&width=2048
Markfield R, is your Dragon's Tongue like the one in this photo? There seem to be one or two possibilities, for example a rocket variety with that name too. This one is a mustard, although I'm not sure that that term doesn't cover quite a range of things.
I have so far not included a description of tomato De Pinto and for Climbing French Bean, Ruth Bible. Mainly because I forgot to take photos.
Tatiana's tomatobase to the rescue. https://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/DePinto
"First offered in the Seed Savers 2001 Yearbook by Sharon Vadas-Arendt of Longmont, Colorado (CO VA S), who got seed from M. Schulyz of Monroe, Washington (WA SC M)."
My seeds came from Sharon, who literally saved this Italian family tomato from the de Pinto immigrant family to USA, from extinction, after nobody of that family carried on gardening. (Similar to her rescue of family bean 'Cousin Oliver' we had in the circle a while ago). Sharon grew and then offered these indeterminate tomato seeds far and wide, including in Seed Savers Exchange, the Heritage Seed Library equivalent in the USA. It is a classic Italian family tomato, round, very slightly oblong, excellent flavour, smallish salad type that is equally suitable for tomato sauce and for freezing.
Ruth Bible is an Appalachian bean, somewhat similar to Frank Barnett, but matures later. Very high yielding and the seeds are not as a rule cut-short like FB. My seed donor was Vetivert, who generously shared her packet. The original source OS is MacMex, aka George Mc Laughlin of Oklahoma USA. Here is an SSE article about George and his seedsaving experiences right from childhood. https://seedsavers.org/stewardship-stories-george-mclaughlin/
George also hosts his own gardening and seedsaving group with a very informative entry about the Ruth Bible bean. https://seedsavingnetwork.proboards.com/thread/309/notes-ruth-bible-pole-bean
I'll start with my list, giving whatever information I can find, photos (if I remembered to take some!) and personal impressions.
Dierama Pulcherrimum Blackberry Bells, grown from seeds originally from Plant World Seeds. Very easy to grow, germinates easily but I recommend sowing immediately with fresh seed as it's a very good candidate for winter sowing. Once germinated, the seedlings look like little blades of grass. The downside is they can take a few years to flower, but I've found them trouble free in all the years I've grown them. Here's what say about it:
Family: Iridaceae
Common name: Angel's Fishing Rods,
Dierama pulcherrimum 'Blackberry Bells
This vigorous hybrid was bred here between 'Cosmos' and Dierama robustum, inheriting some of the darkness from the former flower, but with much larger, deep purple-maroon flared trumpets on very tall, strong springy stems, arising from thick, strong, blade-like leaves. This fabulous plant, coming almost 100% true from seed, makes a strong, solid clump as it matures over the years!
Hollyhock Halo Red
I can't find out much about this one. It's a selection from the Halo series. I like it because it isn't too tall and doesn't need staking, even in my windy seaside garden. It has beautiful, silky petals. I forgot to take my own picture so I've attached one I found online. I've also found it to be rust free unlike every other hollyhock I've tried here.
Plants were originally grown from Thompson and Morgan seed.
Cucumber Miniature White
I can't find any romantic origin story for this cucumber but here's a description:
Popular yellow-white miniature eating cucumber. Best eaten when fruits are less than 3" long. Mild sweet flavor, no need to peel. Productive vines rarely exceed 3' in length; suitable for container gardening.
I haven't had much luck growing cucumbers outside but this variety grows very well in a large container using a one metre obelisk for support. A firm favourite with my tortoise. Plants grown from seed originally from the Incredible Seed Library.
Sweet Pepper Mini Bell Chocolate
Plants grown from seed originally from Happy Green Shop. These are short, bushy plants with small snack sized fruit. Exact breeding origin is not clear. I forgot to take a picture so I'm using one I found online.
Tunny Climbing French Bean
Originally from Beans & Herbs, origin otherwise unknown. Their description:
Bicoloured seed pink and white. Lots of smallish pods. For pods or shelling. Climbing French bean
I haven't tried them as pods, growing them only for their beautiful beans. They were productive and dried well, even with our soggy autumn weather.
Golden Gate Climbing French Bean
Originally sourced from Mr Fothergill's. Grown for their flat, yellow pods, can also be used as a small dry canellini bean. Their description:
Highly attractive, sweet tasting, stringless flat pods are produced in great numbers over a long season. The vigorous climbing plants show good resistance to disease, ensuring high quality, reliable crops.
Winner of an RHS Award of Garden Merit for reliability and good performance.
Gobstopper Tomato
Indeterminate (cordon) tomato with translucent yellow fruit with visible green jelly. Vigorous plant with long trusses. Originally sourced from a seed swap.
Description:
Recent strain resulting from the dehybridization of Sungold, developed by Madeline McKeever of Brown Envelope Seeds, Ireland.
Round cherry type fruit of 10 to 15 grams. Bouquet of a dozen fruits.
Thin transparent greenish-yellow skin through which the green flesh can be seen.
Sweet and fruity flavor.
Tomato Mango Lassi
Indeterminate (cordon) red cherry tomato bred by Vital Seeds. Their description:
Extremely productive red cherry tomato bred for its fine flavour. This is a farm-original variety which we have bred by 'dehybridising' a popular F1 variety. We have been stabilising the line for 5 years and think its ready to send out into the world now!
The plants have been selected each year for the best flavour and excellent productivity. One of our volunteers thought that the fruits tasted like mango so we named it Mango Lassi.
They're a bit coy about it now, but when it was being bred they were more open about it coming from the popular Sakura F1 hybrid.
I didn't get much of a fruity mango flavour, but mine were outside. Perhaps one might have more luck in a warm greenhouse. It still has a beautiful, classic red cherry flavour. It reminded me of the original Gardener's Delight.
What I was most impressed with is how early this was. Typically, Sungold is my earliest outside cherry, but Mango Lassi surprised me by being ready for picking merely a few days after the Sungold, much earlier than my Gardener's Delight.
Highly recommended for an early cherry.
Tomato Darby Striped
Indeterminate (cordon) red/orange striped cherry tomato, from a seed swap. Description:
A non-commercially released tomato bred in the 1960's by Dr Lewis Darby of the Glasshouse Crops Research Institute in Littlehampton. Dr Darby is better known for breeding Tigerella
I've tried Tigerella, Red Zebra and now this one and I think I prefer the appearance, flavour and texture of Darby Striped .
Tomato Ron's Carbon Copy
Indeterminate (cordon) dark cherry tomato. Sourced from a seed swap. Description:
Ron's Carbon Copy Tomato was created by Ron Rhyne of Muskogee, Oklahoma. This was the results of a cross between Carbon and an unknown cherry tomato. A dark-colored cherry tomato that is a mid-season variety with regular leaves.
An absolutely delicious cherry tomato with lovely rich blackberry notes and thin skin. It reminded me of Reinhardt's Purple Sugar which I grew last year but that had chewy skin which I didn't enjoy. Highly recommended!
Quote from: galina on December 08, 2024, 08:50:07(Similar to her rescue of family bean 'Cousin Oliver' we had in the circle a while ago).
That must have been a good many years ago as it pre-dates my involvement. Time for a re-run soon? :happy7:
Quote from: garrett on December 08, 2024, 16:01:41Tomato Mango Lassi
Indeterminate (cordon) red cherry tomato bred by Vital Seeds. Their description:
Extremely productive red cherry tomato bred for its fine flavour. This is a farm-original variety which we have bred by 'dehybridising' a popular F1 variety. We have been stabilising the line for 5 years and think its ready to send out into the world now!
The plants have been selected each year for the best flavour and excellent productivity. One of our volunteers thought that the fruits tasted like mango so we named it Mango Lassi.
They're a bit coy about it now, but when it was being bred they were more open about it coming from the popular Sakura F1 hybrid.
I didn't get much of a fruity mango flavour, but mine were outside. Perhaps one might have more luck in a warm greenhouse. It still has a beautiful, classic red cherry flavour. It reminded me of the original Gardener's Delight.
What I was most impressed with is how early this was. Typically, Sungold is my earliest outside cherry, but Mango Lassi surprised me by being ready for picking merely a few days after the Sungold, much earlier than my Gardener's Delight.
Highly recommended for an early cherry.
Really good to have your photos, info and personal experiences, Garrett.
This tomato sounds a real winner. Always good to have a successful dehybridisation, and who can resist a mango lassi!
Quote from: garrett on December 08, 2024, 16:10:30Tomato Darby Striped
Indeterminate (cordon) red/orange striped cherry tomato, from a seed swap. Description:
A non-commercially released tomato bred in the 1960's by Dr Lewis Darby of the Glasshouse Crops Research Institute in Littlehampton. Dr Darby is better known for breeding Tigerella
I've tried Tigerella, Red Zebra and now this one and I think I prefer the appearance, flavour and texture of Darby Striped .
HSL offers two colour forms of this one, a red/green and a red/yellow. From your photo this looks more like red/yellow which is certainly attractive as well as tasty.I believe this variety was once recommended by the Hairy Bikers as the very best tasting tomato in their experience.
Quote from: garrett on December 08, 2024, 15:40:08Tunny Climbing French Bean
Originally from Beans & Herbs, origin otherwise unknown. Their description:
Bicoloured seed pink and white. Lots of smallish pods. For pods or shelling. Climbing French bean
I haven't tried them as pods, growing them only for their beautiful beans. They were productive and dried well, even with our soggy autumn weather.
I tried growing Tunny this year from some very old seed and failed miserably. Very good to have your fresh seed to have a better go this next season.
Quote from: garrett on December 08, 2024, 14:56:16Hollyhock Halo Red
I can't find out much about this one. It's a selection from the Halo series. I like it because it isn't too tall and doesn't need staking, even in my windy seaside garden. It has beautiful, silky petals. I forgot to take my own picture so I've attached one I found online. I've also found it to be rust free unlike every other hollyhock I've tried here.
Plants were originally grown from Thompson and Morgan seed.
I'm excited to hope for a rust-free hollyhock. A really nice simple flower form too.
Quote from: garrett on December 08, 2024, 14:48:00I'll start with my list, giving whatever information I can find, photos (if I remembered to take some!) and personal impressions.
Dierama Pulcherrimum Blackberry Bells, grown from seeds originally from Plant World Seeds. Very easy to grow, germinates easily but I recommend sowing immediately with fresh seed as it's a very good candidate for winter sowing. Once germinated, the seedlings look like little blades of grass. The downside is they can take a few years to flower, but I've found them trouble free in all the years I've grown them. Here's what say about it:
Family: Iridaceae
Common name: Angel's Fishing Rods,
Dierama pulcherrimum 'Blackberry Bells
This vigorous hybrid was bred here between 'Cosmos' and Dierama robustum, inheriting some of the darkness from the former flower, but with much larger, deep purple-maroon flared trumpets on very tall, strong springy stems, arising from thick, strong, blade-like leaves. This fabulous plant, coming almost 100% true from seed, makes a strong, solid clump as it matures over the years!
Looking forward to this. I had the basic Dierama pulcherrimum a few years ago, which gradually faded out, possibly not enough moisture. But it sounds as though this hybrid version is particularly robust so hoping it has good survival potential. Such a lovely graceful arching plant and your photo shows a particularly lovely rich dark colour.
Quote from: ruud on November 20, 2024, 14:11:20Marie-louise
Lazy housewife
Rosaweisse
all three are polebeans.
Ruud, is your Housewife the Lazy Housewife bean? From Bohnenatlas? Is your Rosa Weiße the Rosa Weiße Stangenbohne from Bohnenatlas or the Rosa Weiße Stangenbohne Sgarz from Arche Noah? Is Marielouise from Bohnenatlas?
Looking forward to these beans.
Just having a late-night thought about seasonality, giving, and the over commercialisation of everything.
I don't think about it much these days but this seed circle embodies a counterculture and is a true gift.
Not all that many people opt to grow something throughout its lifecycle and disseminate the fruits of the process to an eager recipient. We've found each other in quite an unusual niche hobby and I'm grateful for it.
Christmastime is now also my 'seedtime' and I wouldn't have it any other way.
Thank you for your late night thoughts, Vetivert. As far as the Seed Circle is concerned we are a little held up at the moment by factors making global exchange of seeds more difficult than it used to be. My Christmas wish is that things might ease again at some not too distant time in the future.
But hopefully, one way or another, our circle seeds should be on their way within the week, arriving around a time to enrich the Christmas season and help to make it 'seed time'.
After writing my rather cautious text yesterday, I'm delighted to report that Ruud's parcel successfully arrived just hours later and in quite good time. Thank you, Ruud. I was eager to communicate the good news but the site was down for 24 hours or so.
Anyway, all parcels have been despatched this morning. I'm hoping that they don't get slowed down too much by the Christmas rush. And hopefully Christmas time will indeed be seedtime! :blob7:
With you Vetivert, not many parcels are this magical with a spirit of something special. This year I shall again get my twenty five advent envelopes, get my OH to fill them ( no peeking) and lasting into January each morning with coffee and notebook and real ink pen make notes of the excitement/knowledge to come. I share with others too so over the years our circle has benefited/inspired a larger number.
Thank you to everyone and especially JanG for making this happen.
JanG I will asap put some notes together.
Galina,those beans i put in the seedcircle are all from the bohnen-atlas.
I'd be interested to know, Ruud, where your seed of Yedikule 5701 lettuce came from? Did you find it on your Turkish travels?
I've become fascinated by this variety. Thank you for donating it, Ruud. Googling suggests it's a Romaine type. Apparently it was traditionally grown in botsans which seem to be ancient Turkish equivalents of allotments or small market gardens. Yedikule is a district within Istanbul. One source suggests this variety has been grown in botsans in Yedikule for over 1500 years but I would take that with a slight pinch of salt. Certainly though it does seem to be a variety well established within Turkish culture. But nowhere have I been able to find any information about what 5701 relates to and I would really like to know!
I'm attempting to gather information at the moment ( round other pre-Christmas pressures) for the Airtable database as usual at this time of year. It will take some time to complete but I hope to send links to all participants before too long and you might well be able to access it anyway from last season.
I happen to have started with your seeds, Ruud, and I'm just looking into Mr Wrinkles pumpkin. It's a Jack o' Lantern type and looks very beautiful (see photo). I assume that Jack o' Lantern types are mainly grown for halloween carving and might not necessarily taste brilliant. Sources vary on this one, one suggesting it doesn't have culinary merit and another that it tastes good. Have you tried it, Ruud, or just grown it for its beauty?! It's a hybrid which I take to mean that it's likely not to come true from seed but it could be interesting to see what is produced.
Quote from: JanG on December 12, 2024, 17:36:12Apparently it was traditionally grown in botsans which seem to be ancient Turkish equivalents of allotments or small market gardens. Yedikule is a district within Istanbul. One source suggests this variety has been grown in botsans in Yedikule for over 1500 years but I would take that with a slight pinch of salt. Certainly though it does seem to be a variety well established within Turkish culture. But nowhere have I been able to find any information about what 5701 relates to and I would really like to know!
I have misspelled this word for a Turkish allotment. It should be 'bostan'. It seems that the self-sustaining way of life which bostans have allowed is under threat and, along with it, the Yedikule lettuce.
Thank you Ruud for the information about the beans. I had a look at this lettuce online and it looks a really big Romaine or Cos type of lettuce, perfect for a big salad with croutons on top
Thank you for turning the packages around so fast Jang, much appreciated. And Vetivert your very christmassy sentiments are shared very much indeed. I love growing seed circle seeds and sending virtual thanks to the donors.
Landed ! How very exciting. Thank you all, and very best wishes for the coming season.
Hoi jan,the number is only a cataloquenumber you also can leave it.The pumpkin i only growed for decoration .I dont know how it taste.
I have also received them. Thank you so much JanG for your speedy turnaround! I had a quick peak but I'm waiting for a few hours of peace and quiet to go through them all. Coffee, cake and Excel spreadsheet at the ready! :blob7:
Best wishes
Thank you all for such a lovely parcel this year. A delight as always, and my thanks to you JanG for all of the effort that goes into organising this. :icon_cheers:
Have just been notified that my parcel has landed too, awaiting our next trip. Thank you very much everybody. :sunny:
Quote from: ruud on December 14, 2024, 10:13:40Hoi jan,the number is only a cataloquenumber you also can leave it.The pumpkin i only growed for decoration .I dont know how it taste.
Thanks Ruud. The number nearly always seems to be there as part of the name so I would wish to include it. Interesting that you're thinking it's a catalogue number. In the context of the bostan, it was perhaps to do with some kind of listing, position, plot number or the like. We will probably never know.
JanG here's the info on my seeds :wave:
Apologies to all for not including the Rakkyo bulbs. I had forgotten they are unusual in actively growing and flowering in autumn. Hopefully I can keep them dormant in storage for next year's circle.
Coree de Sang
Climbing French Bean
Shelling/drying type from South Korea.
https://belleepoquemeise.be/le-roi-du-potager/coree-de-san/
(Guy Dirix, BE, 2023)
Wstęga
Dwarf wax bean
Intensely yellow pods that are flat, wide and fleshy. Early variety with strong branching. Seeds are oval with a pretty blue-grey 'pheasant eye' pattern on a cream background.
https://sklep-nasiona.pl/fasola-wstega-szparagowa-karlowa-zolta.html
(Private Donor, PL, 2023)
Tytania
Dwarf wax bean
Like Wstęga , but the seeds are a graphite blue, becoming more brown and khaki as they age.
https://deaflora.de/Shop/Bohnen/Buschbohne-Tytania.html
(Private Donor, PL, 2023)
Red Beard 赤ひげ葱
Japanese Bunching Onion
Sweet red spring onion, best for winter use, Nov-Mar. Blanching and low temperatures intensify the colour. Multiplies into 5-10 shanks.
A comparative photo of rather pale Red Beard (R) and Shimonita (L)
https://blog-imgs-42.fc2.com/u/j/i/ujiiefarm/20101119114101285.jpg
(Real Seeds, 2021)
Valentine
Semi-grandiflora Sweet Pea
Recent recipient of the RHS AGM 2023; the assessment forum described them as follows:
"Fabulous. Tall growing. Good foliage. Floriferous. Large, pure coloured flowers on long, strong stems. Many stems with five blooms. Spring sown plants looked good early in the season. Final height: Autumn-sown to 230cm, spring-sown to 200cm."
The semi-grandiflora type is characterised by wavy petals and a closed keel, in contrast to the Spencer type which has wavy petals and an open keel, and the old-fashioned/modern grandifloras which have plain petals and a closed keel - so they are halfway between the two.
I don't think it's my imagination that the white grandifloras (at least Valentine and Bramdean) have notes of neroli, jasmine and the so-called 'night scented' flowers.
You should find that their scent is discernibly different from 'Enigma'.
(English Sweet Peas, 2023)
Chinese Pink Celery
An attractive type of cutting celery of the 'kintsai' group, grown more as herb than a vegetable. The aroma can be very strong.
It doesn't have chlorophyll in the stems so won't need blanching to achieve the bright pink colour.
Grew into a huge bush of blooms that were favoured by lacewings and tiny parasitic wasps, so if you want to encourage more pest-predators in your garden then this may be the plant for you. Biennial. Overwintered outdoors.
(Baker Creek, 2021)
Dreadnought
Mid-size salad tomato
Classic old-fashioned tomato, round, red, tennis-ball sized at its largest. Very flavoursome and good texture.
What I found odd about this variety, but appreciated nonetheless, was its skin. It may have been down to the way it was cultivated, but the skin was tough and peeled off very easily, like the fruit had been blanched in boiling water. Maybe it was bred to be that way, from a time where tomatoes were consumed skinless?
Unfortunately, I cannot trace any information regarding the history of this variety.
(HSL, Seed Guardian Gift, 2022)
I don't think it's my imagination that the white grandifloras (at least Valentine and Bramdean) have notes of neroli, jasmine and the so-called 'night scented' flowers.
Thank you, Vetivert, for your illuminating notes. I enjoyed the personal observations and admire the ability to separate out notes of different fragrances. I'm not at all familiar with the scent of neroli, let alone being able to detect it in a sweet pea bloom.
It sounds sumptuous and I look forward to growing it.
An attractive type of cutting celery of the 'kintsai' group, grown more as herb than a vegetable. The aroma can be very strong.
In practice, does this imply that you would cut it up quite finely rather than in larger pieces in a stew or stir-fry, for example?
Much to look forward to Vetivert, thank you for the descriptions.
I have one plant of 'cutting celery', which was meant to be a celeriac, but never grew a thick bulb. It seems to survive winters here which are colder than Britain (zone 6 to 7 with climate change), unlike celeriac. It is now in its fourth year, disappearing in summer, then throwing up leaves in late autumn but not multiplying from the base or flowering. These leaves and the thin stems are very tender and I cut them one at a time for extra flavour in our salads, but with only one plant there is not enough to really add to the winter salad provision.
I had perennialised celery in Rushden and also perennialised bulb fennel which both provided a huge amount of new shoots in spring, during the hungry gap. I wonder whether Chinese Pink Celery could also be a winter survivor here. Really looking forward to growing it. Unfortunately Red Venture, which we had from you a while ago, does not survive here in the same way, although it is very good as a seasonal celery and makes new seed readily.
A dreadnought was a battleship that withstood practically anything. I wonder whether this tomato can similarly survive anything the weather can throw at it. Cold, rain and hopefully even blight. We will see. Sounds more a nickname than a variety name. I also read it was a 'glasshouse' tomato. That, and its name, conjures up dig for victory second world war times, when all greenhouses were given over to food production, in particular tomatoes, which could be preserved for winter.
It will be interesting to compare with Blaby Special too.
Sorry forgot the url. https://www.gardenorganic.org.uk/news/heritage-seed-library-heres-what-weve-been-up-to#:~:text=Our%20last%20two%20are%20tomato%20Dreadnought;%20an,fine%20crop%20of%20seeds%20in%20year%20two.
"Our last two are tomato Dreadnought; an exhibition variety suited to glasshouse cultivation that produces a multitude of round, red fruits ..."
Unfortunately Red Venture, which we had from you a while ago, does not survive here in the same way, although it is very good as a seasonal celery and makes new seed readily.
More fortunately, Red Venture has over-wintered here in what I think you might call East Midlands (we're rather difficult to ascribe to a broad area). It self-seeds to a perfect degree and is both beautiful and useful. I value it greatly. It will be interesting to compare with Chinese Pink.
Quote from: JanG on December 17, 2024, 07:30:20An attractive type of cutting celery of the 'kintsai' group, grown more as herb than a vegetable. The aroma can be very strong.
In practice, does this imply that you would cut it up quite finely rather than in larger pieces in a stew or stir-fry, for example?
I suppose you could, I'm honestly not sure how much difference that would make in practice, just be careful not to use it in the quantities one would apportion to regular 'big' celery. I've always presumed the 'cutting' part of the name is because in China this celery is repeatedly harvested by cutting a portion and allowing it to regrow. There Dutch also have culivars of herb celery harvested similarly e.g. 'Parcel'.
Has everybody had their parcel by now? Hope so. Christmas is coming ever closer and the seed share out has become so much part of the festive season. :wave:
My parcel arrived today!
Everything has been sorted into categories and spread out on the dining table to make notes. I'm already in love with the beautiful Corée de Sang bean.
Thank you to Jan for organising and everyone who contributed this wonderful array of seeds. Christmas has come early!
That's a relief. Thanks for the confirmation. I'm not sure why yours took so long but great that you have it now.
All are safely delivered, including even the one which quite smoothly found its way to The Netherlands. :blob7:
I wonder whether anyone has any thoughts about the different strains of Lazy Housewife bean. There is a white seeded version which we have had in the circle before donated by Silverleaf around 2020 or 2021 I think, and which is commercially available, offered for example by Kings Seeds and Pennard Plants.
Then there is a pale pinkish brown strain offered by HSL and Beans and Herbs, for example
Screenshot 2024-12-20 at 21.04.55.pngScreenshot 2024-12-20 at 21.04.25.png
Finally there seems to be a slightly darker brown strain. Thank you, Ruud, for contributing seeds of this darker form which is the Bohnen-atlas form
(https://www.bohnen-atlas.de/sorten/l/2361-lazy-housewife-brown-)Lazy Housewife Bohnenatlas.jpeg
The first photo is from Bohnen-atlas, the second from HSL and the third from Beans and Herbs. The first is just like Ruud's seeds.
There are 3 different beans with similar names. From UK HSL Lazy Housewife, brown seeded, lightbrown pinkish, darkening to dark brown. From USA Lazy Housewife, sometimes also called Lazy Wife, which is white seeded. Also Lazy Wife Greasy, which is similar to the USA Lazy Housewife, but with shiny seeds.
The HSL bean (also in Bohnenatlas and in Beans and Herbs, but OS HSL) is thought to be called LH because its very large, green, comma shaped pods which stick out from the plants, it doesn't take long to fill a pot and they are easy to spot. If there should be any doubt, these sickle moon shaped pods are quite unique and something to look out for. If you look at Bohnenatlas entry of brown seeded LH and the description of the seeds, it says pinkish brown and the second photo shows the colour of slightly fresher seeds. Unfortunately it is not an early bean.
The USA LH may have got its name from its superior bearing. The plants are loaded, so it is easy for the Housewife to fill a pot fast.
We had all 3 versions in the seed circle at various times.
Thanks for that, Galina. So you're saying that the lighter pinkish brown and the darker brown are actually one and the same. The darker brown is simply less fresh than than the lighter. So apart from the Greasy form, which usefully includes greasy in the name, there are just two forms.
I hadn't realised that the white seeded comes from US and the brown from Europe.
Don't know where the empty posts come from, never mind.
Seed darkening over time is well known and seed colours do vary from soil to soil too. Seed shape and the brown ring around the hilum look the same, so there is a good chance that all is well. The ultimate proof is in the grow out. In particular, the sickle shaped large green pods. If we were to get straight pods, then something would be wrong for sure. But just looking at the differently brown seeds, I wouldn't worry.
The white seeded LH is a different bean altogether with green straight, rounder, shorter pods, they are not related, just happen to have the same name. The brown seeded LH does come from England, HSL, who had it in their catalogue for decades. However, HSL say, it is a German variety without giving more info to substantiate this. Never heard of in Germany, at least not under this English name! This is what HSL say: A German heritage variety popular there since the early 1800s. Thought to have earned its name due to the way, at the end of the season, the leaves wither and expose the pods making them easy to pick. Growing to around 2.5m in height this white-flowered variety is hardy and resilient, and very productive. One of our Seed Guardians commented: "The beans just kept coming; I grew tired of picking them every other day! The flavour is superb." Also copes well with hot, dry conditions. Seed colour pale cream to buff. e o q Their seed photo shows 2 beans that are significantly darker than the others. The colour of the pods in the first photo is misleading, the pods are green. But it shows the distinct sickle shape well. The 'popular there since the early 1800s' statement does not actually mean, you will find it in current day seed catalogues in Germany.
https://www.gardenorganic.org.uk/seeds/climbing-french-bean-lazy-housewife
Thanks for further information and insights. It would be good if HSL was clearer about its sources. I don't know whether they come up with further information if asked, by researchers, for example, but with the key role they hold in the seed world, a more academic approach to the information they often rather vaguely suggest would be useful.
On the white-seeded Lazy Wife, from Vilmorin's The Vegetable Garden:
White Coco, or Lazy Wife, Kidney Bean. - Stem green, about 6 1/2 ft. high; leaves of medium size, stiff, rather long and pointed, of a dark, rather dull, green, and slightly crimped; flowers white; pods of medium length, rather broad, green, each containing five or six white egg-shaped seeds, about 1/2 in. long, nearly 1/2 in. broad, and over 1/4 in. thick. This variety, although ranking amongst the Edible-podded kinds (especally when the pods are young), is more esteemed for its seeds, which are used in the dried state.
The Sophie Kidney Bean is considered to be only a sub-variety of the White Coco, from which it differs in having rather larger pods (which are sometimes tinged with red, like those of the Prague Kidney Beans) and somewhat larger leaves.
I'm not so sure that Lazy Wife is from the US. I think it's more likely that White Coco was renamed for the US market. In Denaiffe's Les Haricots it is mentioned that 'Coco Blanc' is esteemed in certain regions for the quality of its seeds. I doubt there would be regional preferences if it was a recent introduction to France.
That's a great piece of research and deduction, Vetivert, which I'm looking forward to giving more time to later.
Two quick points to raise. I'm confused as to whether Lazy Wife and Lazy Housewife are interchangeable names for the same bean.
And the Coco Sophie which I grew this year was extremely productive and dried down beautifully, more so than the
Lazy Housewife which I've grown before. It was grown in a prime isolated position which might have helped,so it's an observation rather than a conclusion.
Coco Sophie photos
Quote from: JanG on December 22, 2024, 07:35:38I'm confused as to whether Lazy Wife and Lazy Housewife are interchangeable names for the same bean.
Lazy Wife is synonymous with White Coco. Lazy Housewife is an entirely different bean.
It's possible that Lazy Wife/White Coco has recently acquired the Lazy Housewife moniker, if you have found an instance of this commercially, but it's a mistake as there are no historic sources for this synonym.
Quote from: Beans of New York 1928Lazy Wife. Syns. White Cranberry, Sophie, Maryland White Pole, White Cherry. Maule in 1894 says Lazy Wife originated in Bucks Co., Pa., but it was probably brought there by German settlers. When comparison is possible it corresponds in every way with Martens Sophie bean, which he says was noted by Savi in 1822 as San Domingo bean; and Tracy says the variety was known in America as early as 1810 as White Cherry Pole or White Cranberry Pole. In France the type is known as Coco Blanc. Irish describes Sophie but evidently this was only a semi-climbing type. Its maximum height is given as from 3 to 4 feet. It is of equal value in the home garden as a snap or green shell bean and is also a good late variety for the market. At Geneva it produced its pods very late, 80 days from time of planting, about the same in season as Ward's Prolific and about one week later than Southern Cornfield and one week earlier than Georgian Pole. As a late snap pole bean it is excelled in quality by Scotia and Black-Seeded Kentucky Wonder, but as a shell bean it is probably unsurpassed.
White Cranberry. White Cranberry was known in America as early as 1828 and was quite popular for a long time, for its white, greenshell beans. Sophie, Lazy Wife, and White Cranberry are names which have been represented in catalogs for more than a century. Of the three, Lazy Wife alone continues to be listed in current catalogs. There is no clear demarkation between these varieties. Denaiffe gives White Cranberry as a synonym of Coco Blanc which, according to his description, is identical with Lazy Wife. Vilmorin considers Sophie a strain of Coco Blanc, while Wing described Sophie as either the predecessor of Lazy Wife or its European form. By some White Cranberry was known by a few characters markedly different from other types, it being decidedly more stocky, with broader pods, wider from stem to tip, and with marked carmine or purplish shadings typical of the horticultural varieties, and also with seeds slightly longer in proportion than those of Sophie.
As Galina mentioned, the pink/brown seeded Lazy Housewife is unrelated and I cannot find it in the literature.
Quote from: Vetivert on December 22, 2024, 09:14:08It's possible that Lazy Wife/White Coco has recently acquired the Lazy Housewife moniker, if you have found an instance of this commercially, but it's a mistake as there are no historic sources for this synonym.
Real Seeds offer a white seeded bean which they call Lazy Housewife. They quote Burpee:
A prolific bean introduced by W. Atlee Burpee and Co in 1885 - from their original description: "the pods are green, entirely stringless, of extra fine flavor, exceedingly rich and buttery when cooked.".....
In 1907 this was judged to be almost the very best flavoured bean on the market.I assume that they checked that this was indeed the white-seeded version and that it was listed as Lazy Housewife rather than Lazy Wife, so the name seems to have been used as early as the late nineteenth century. I can't find the Burpee catalogue online.
Another slight variation of Coco Blanc is a variety sold by Wilko, before it ceased trading, called Coco Blanc à Rames. Its white seeds are very like those of Lazy Wife/Housewife to my eye.
Hi Jan, yes I agree Coco Blanc à Rames is synonymous - 'haricot à rames' or 'haricot ramant' roughly translates to pole or stick bean and denotes a climbing habit, as opposed to 'haricot nain' which are dwarf beans.
Here's another example from a French seed house:
https://www.graines-baumaux.fr/169464-haricot-ramant-coco-gros-sophie-ou-coco-blanc-a-rames.html
Real Seeds changed the name for their listing. :icon_scratch: The Burpee catalogue entry from 1885 lists 'Lazy Wife', not 'Lazy Housewife' (attached below). There are over 5600 hits for the former in the Biodiversity Heritage Library but none for the latter, so I feel confident in the conclusion that there is no historical record for a Lazy 'Housewife'. I do wonder why RS decided to change it.
Nowadays I tend not to take modern catalogue descriptions at face value when it comes to heritage vegetables as unfortunately these companies are not incentivised to do their due diligence when it comes to depth of research and accuracy. Even when they cite a source, there can be glaring inaccuracies, as in the above example. Another case: RS describes the pea Kelvedon Wonder as an introduction from '120 years ago', but it was introduced commercially in 1925 (Les Pois, Fourmont 1956). I know in the grand scheme of things it's a minor issue, but if something is valued, preserved and traded on its provenance and history then getting that provenance and history 'wrong' is a rather cynical marketing practice.
The Heritage Seed Library catalogue is sadly guilty of significantly more egregious examples than this, and if they can't be bothered to get it right, then it doesn't bode well for those that follow their lead!
Vetivert, again your research is wonderfully illuminating. And so helpful that you have a copy of the original Burpee catalogue to clinch the matter. And rather dismaying that the generally trusted Real Seeds are guilty of such slackness. One might wonder whether they were not the first to change the name but as they refer to Burpee, it was less than rigorous not to refer back to and use the Burpee nomenclature. Also your reference to the number of hits for Lazy Wife as opposed to Lazy Housewife does seem to suggest they made the change themselves for some reason. A message to them to enquire seems called for.
The dilemma now is whether to use the Lazy Wife name in future, or Lazy Wife's to follow Burpee. A frequent rule of thumb is to use the name one received seed under - and I have Lazy Wife seed originally from Real Seeds. If there's a clear error then I suppose it's sensible and helpful to correct it. In a case like this, going back to an earlier usage when it's clear that a change has been made, seems helpful too.
My internet search for the Burpee catalogue was unsuccessful. Please could you indicate how and where you found it.
Heritage Seed Library indeed have been proved to put defensiveness above a real desire for accuracy on several occasions. Fogs and confusions are thus proliferated.
Your reference to Graines Baumaux is interesting. Their listing of the variety in question as HARICOT RAMANT COCO GROS SOPHIE OU COCO BLANC À RAMES attempts perhaps to cover all possibilities except of course for Lazy Wife.
Absolutely fabulous research. What a history. I really was somewhat too glib in saying this bean comes to us from USA, but when I started growing beans, which is going back a bit :sunny: there literally was no white seeded Lazy Housewife or even Lazy Wife in general circulation in Britain. Then one day it was, via the USA. "Real Seeds offer a white seeded bean which they call Lazy Housewife. They quote Burpee: ....." This was almost certainly how I arrived at the USA origin, wrongly as it turned out. At that time I would not have particularly looked at French Coco Sophie beans, far less equated them with a bean, which then was unknown to me, in any case. Thank you for much (and much needed!) information, Vetivert. This has made my day!
Here's the link to the Burpee Cat. 1885 JanG; I don't have a copy personally, would be nice... :)
https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/page/45323828
If you use the advanced search feature on the BHL you will turn up all sorts of wonderful resources.
Quote from: Vetivert on December 21, 2024, 14:49:00I'm not so sure that Lazy Wife is from the US. I think it's more likely that White Coco was renamed for the US market.
Galina, on the contrary, I think I was perhaps too glib with this statement, because I don't think it's incorrect to say Lazy Wife came from the US. Perhaps it was better for me to say that a cultivar synonymous with, or the progenitor of, Lazy Wife was already here, and it appeared to be reintroduced under a unique new name from the US, though it had been known in Europe for a much longer time with a different name... which is more accurate but a lot longer and more convoluted :drunken_smilie:
Maybe a bit of extra information, which I just found in the 'bowels' of my old downloads. The 2008 seed listing of Seed Saver's Exchange, that was made public that year, but without information of who the seed sellers are. SSE runs on a model of listing seeds in a members booklet, but people buy from private sellers, this is different from the British membership based HSL which give free seeds as a member perk. I am pretty sure I read that the proprietor of Real Seeds is or was a member of SSE. This is an exerpt from the SSE 2008 listing.
BEAN / POLE / SNAP Lazy Housewife
BEAN / POLE / SNAP Lazy Wife
BEAN / POLE / SNAP Lazy Wife #3
BEAN / POLE / SNAP Lazy Wife, Brown Seeded
Unfortunately it does not specify seed colour for all entries, but the name Lazy Housewife itself, seems to have been known in the USA at that time. There is a possibility, this bean came to UK (and with this name), via the SSE and not via a commercial seed source, like Burpee.
Sorry this is getting so technical now, please scroll by if this is all too much information.
Thank you. That does at least mean that Real Seeds don't need to be blamed for rather unnecessary name changing.
I guess all this search for certainty goes to show that trying to chase the naming history of seed varieties is fraught with difficulties and uncertainties. Maybe one day dna analysing will be so widespread and available that some of these mysteries will be more easily unravelled.
A few notes, I only tasted the tomatoes as too many bugs and beasties were happily doing that for me on the beans and peas and wasn't sure what or if there were going to be any left.
Tomato Essex Wonder, plant bought a at nursery. A good strong and prolific plant reasonable flavour, found this link ( sorry longhand) The blog of Essex Record Office , the storehouse of Essex History...archive September 23 2023.
Scotland Yellow, HSL ,ind golf ball size yellow fruit, nice flavour fruited over a long period, last fruits went floury but interestingly spreadable!!
Silvery Fir Tree,(HSL) very pretty carrot leaf bush plant , tasty with a bite . Red.
All the above grown in a greenhouse in case of blight.
DFB Elba, Pennard Plants.Dark green very fine beans.
Pea , American Wonder. Dwarf. Real Seeds. From the 1800's grows to 20 inches , small fat pods .
DFB Nautica. Pennard Plants. Green Kenyan type fine pencil pods
stringless.
Pea, Sankia HSL. Thought to have originated in San Kia , Chinese Turkistan now Xinjiang, acquired by the U S dept of agriculture in 1910 to be trialled as a potential forage crop, more recently for research into seed bourne pea mosaic virus in the Netherlands. Tall plant white flowers short curved pods.
Pea. Sutton's Phenomenon, HSL ,white flower, large pods ,short.
DFB, Dior, Pennard Plants. Yellow pods , fresh and for drying.
CFB. HSL .Bob and Mary. Prolific, eat at all stages.
CFB . Hodgkin,HSL, Romanian HSL. Notes too vague, sorry.
CFB . Kentucky Wonder , Pennard Plants. Notes with JanG .
Dragon's Tongue Oriental Greens. Peppery/ mustard leaf with an attractive leaf as in JanG's picture.
Tree Peony , from my garden and could possibly be yellow !
Thanks for your notes, MR. Very helpful. Airtable database is moving very slowly having got caught up in the Christmas activities. It will happen though!
I realise I haven't written any notes about the annual opium poppy (or bread poppy I think it's also called), Papaver somniferum, which I contributed seed for. This is a variety which self-seeds through my vegetable garden and is specially attractive and always welcome. The photo here is of Vetivert's very lovely Enigma sweet pea growing amidst my poppy
I didn't attach it properly. In the flesh it looks a little more pink and slightly less red. It's four to five feet tall. IMG_0019.jpeg
JanG, thanks for sharing a much needed taste of summer with that photo.. having thoughts of fresh berries and cream for some reason. I look forward to seeing those poppies in the flesh next year.
Markfield, thank you also for the descriptions of your lovely seeds. Sorry to read about the beasties, what a bother!
Indoor play and no mistake ! Whilst perusing the Thomas Etty seed catalogue ( online) ,he has an interesting list of vegetable and flower resources starting in the 1400's , some great names ( familiar too ) and spelling. A salad was a much simpler dish back then , not sure garnish was a thing more a dish or remedy.
Indoor play indeed, at the moment. I hope more indoor play can be had with the updated database which is now more or less complete I hope. I've sent individual PMs to all participants with a new link. I hope that all the information and photos you have contributed here on this thread are there, with quite a lot of new information too. Let me know if anything isn't right or if there are gaps and do have a play with different views - gallery or grid - and sorting in different ways.
And very best wishes for this new year. May all your seeds germinate, your crops grow tall and your harvests be sumptuous.
And, by the way, the Circle has exchanged 105 varieties this year. Not of course that it's about numbers, but the quality and range are admirable too. Well done, everyone.
Airtable works fine for me, thank you Jan. A few duplicates, maybe intentional, mouthwatering photos and in almost all cases a great deal of information too. A lot of work to collate all this information. Thank you very much. :icon_cheers:
Looking through the database is a tonic on 'indoor days'. With -9C here, outdoor activity is also kept to a minimum.
Wishing everybody a great, happy and healthy 2025 and may sunshine and rain be coming in the right quantities and at the right time to bring our circle seeds to fruition.
Maybe a obvious question, having grown some delicious Winter Squash Uchiki Kuri (Cucurbita Maxima) last year they were full of amazing large seeds I saved and dried 10 .Seemed crazy to bin them , BUT ,I have my doubts they come true this year ?
Squash are very promiscuous. Chances are they will not come true. However there is no reason not to grow them as the results will at least be edible (and being cucurbita maxima squashes, there is no chance of that bitter gene creeping in, that made some people sick).
I took a few photos earlier in the year, to show how to isolate and handpollinate squash, in order to get pure seeds. If you do it this way, your seeds will come true for sure providing you don't start with with an F1 hybrid
type. Starting here: (any questions, just ask)
https://www.allotments4all.co.uk/smf2.1/index.php/topic,83530.40.html
Quote from: picman on January 06, 2025, 12:34:42Maybe a obvious question, having grown some delicious Winter Squash Uchiki Kuri (Cucurbita Maxima) last year they were full of amazing large seeds I saved and dried 10 .Seemed crazy to bin them , BUT ,I have my doubts they come true this year ?
I endorse all that Galina has said, but with the one proviso that if this is the only variety of Cucurbita maxima squash you grew, and you have no neighbours growing C. maxima either, they would come true.
I also agree it's a delicious squash and I love the rich colour. It should store well too.
JanG " no neighbours growing C. maxima ?" Is a good question.Our site seems to have become a spuds,beans and tomatoes and chatting site.Over the years it has become more of a social interest for many, not that that is bad, you need a healthy mix,but unfortunately a lot of good horticultural practices have gone out the window.mmmm too many to list!( I have had a plot for 25 years ) I will plant a couple of seeds and will find out thanks for the advice.
Looks like you fly the flag for greater diversity and perhaps for saving your own seed. Good luck with the squash.
Do you save seed from other crops, eg. tomatoes, beans, lettuces? They should all come true.
JanG, As the price of seed has gone mad, seed saving sometimes, Runners definitely, with an occasional try of different variety, IMO, if they do well on my soil I try to keep some of the seed, Yet to find a carrot that does well, probably too fertile, Think our site was left by a glacier !. Black peat 1 foot down also a layer of compressed ash in places ? but in general soil lacks minerals and rather acid , so bags of mag lime and trace elements help.I saw carrots sown in egg trays worked well , you put the whole thing in the soil after germination, worked well till the squirrel trashed it looking for the eggs ! :BangHead:
IMG_1123s.jpg
I really can't wait to grow these. Here is a video of what to expect. Thank you Vetivert for adding these. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P6ghBBp6z4
Picman, excellent carrot tip. Thank you. Perfectly spaced after planting too. No thinning needed. Shame about the squirrel.
Quote from: galina on January 16, 2025, 15:14:06I really can't wait to grow these. Here is a video of what to expect. Thank you Vetivert for adding these. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P6ghBBp6z4
Thanks for finding that great video, Galina. I'll add it to the base. I'm interested in the suggestion that Chinese celery is more adaptable and easier to grow than European varieties. I used to be disappointed with home grown celery because it was tougher than the celery of my childhood which could be eaten raw. But I've come to value it for what it adds to soups, stews and stir-fries. And I like the way it bounces back in spring. In fact, it can be enjoyed at nearly every time of year. There seems usually to be some part of leaf or stalk available for cutting and cooking.
It will be interesting to see whether Chinese celery is, as Baker Creek reckon, even better.
I remember my mother and OH getting excited if they ever found "dirty celery" I believe from the Fens , I haven't seen any for a long time but I can remember the fine flavour.
Oh wow. Fenland celery really is a 'thing' and quite a big thing. It even has protected status. 'Dirty' because grown and earthed up, rather than whatever they do with other celery grown elsewhere. Isn't fenland soil particularly rich? And fairly moist? https://fenlandcelery.com/#:~:text=Grown%20in%20wide%20rows%20with,the%20celery%20as%20it%20grows.
I do remember the celery having a fine almost black soot like soil on the outer sticks. It was never cooked, just raw with a little salt.
Hi JanG, is the lettuce Brune d'Hiver a cos or butterhead?
Good luck it's looking promising.
Quote from: galina on January 17, 2025, 12:01:03Oh wow. Fenland celery really is a 'thing' and quite a big thing. It even has protected status. 'Dirty' because grown and earthed up, rather than whatever they do with other celery grown elsewhere. Isn't fenland soil particularly rich? And fairly moist? https://fenlandcelery.com/#:~:text=Grown%20in%20wide%20rows%20with,the%20celery%20as%20it%20grows.
I somehow managed to miss this discussion about Fenland celery which excites me very much now I've found it!
Quote from: markfield rover on January 17, 2025, 13:57:46I do remember the celery having a fine almost black soot like soil on the outer sticks. It was never cooked, just raw with a little salt.
Yes indeed. I remember celery with black fine soil on it from my childhood before I knew of the fens at all.
I live in the midst of an area of rich soil, which I believe grows more vegetables for the UK market than any other. There are fields of brassicas especially, and potatoes, but I've never been aware of celery.
When I looked at Galina's link to Fenland celery I realised that it's centred on Ely which is in the Cambridgeshire fens rather than Lincolnshire fens where I live. The fens are divided into peat fen and silt fen, depending upon which deposit was laid down last. It's quite striking when you move from one area to another, from lighter brown soil to the very dark soil of the peat fen.
My soil is fen silt, very fertile certainly, but not the black peat soil, much of it in Cambridgeshire, where I'm guessing most of the celery growing takes place, rather than the more alkaline soil round here, which is very good for brassica growing.
Quote from: Vetivert on January 22, 2025, 20:41:20Hi JanG, is the lettuce Brune d'Hiver a cos or butterhead?
It's a butterhead. I'm hoping it's true. Having grown from my saved seed myself, I just have a little doubt. It should be a butterhead with a slightly red-brown tinge to the outer leaves.
I have seen it described as a Batavia lettuce. It is a butterhead, but with crunchier leaves than a 'soft' butterhead. I have seen it listed as a cos too, but this really is not justified when you think of a typical cos, like Lobjoits.
I guess the peat based fen soil has more water holding abilities perhaps? And celery is a water loving crop, especially if we want it to be fat and juicy. Celeriac too can never be watered too much, to produce big heads.
I guess a thickish grass mulch to keep the soil damp might help too. But I have never tried that, just really thinking aloud how to make my celery thicker, juicier and my celeriacs bigger.
Quote from: JanG on January 23, 2025, 07:40:38Quote from: Vetivert on January 22, 2025, 20:41:20Hi JanG, is the lettuce Brune d'Hiver a cos or butterhead?
It's a butterhead. I'm hoping it's true. Having grown from my saved seed myself, I just have a little doubt. It should be a butterhead with a slightly red-brown tinge to the outer leaves.
Quote from: galina on January 23, 2025, 12:27:33I have seen it described as a Batavia lettuce. It is a butterhead, but with crunchier leaves than a 'soft' butterhead. I have seen it listed as a cos too, but this really is not justified when you think of a typical cos, like Lobjoits.
Sounds wonderful! Can't wait to taste, thank you.
I wonder whether anyone else has begun to sow seeds yet? I get a lot of pleasure from the first sowings.
I had an interesting experience with @juliev's Czech Early aubergine seeds from 2023.They disappointingly failed to germinate last year. So this year I gave them another try on damp kitchen paper and had 100% germination! Perhaps some seed is more viable after a resting period. Some of course is much better fresh. Seeds never cease to amaze with their varied germination habits. But thank you for several good strong young plants @juliev.
I sowed @vetivert's sweet pea, Valentine, in early January (appropriate to mention today!) and the plants are now about four inches tall and at that stage where it's recommended to pinch out the tips, a job for today perhaps.
I've sown @vetivert's Chinese Pink celery which is just beginning to show on the compost surface. I guess it needs to be under glass or plastic at this stage but the seedlings are pretty hardy it seems. Tiny and slow to develop.
Otherwise it's time in my schedule to start thinking about sowing some peas. I sowed @juliev's My Bound's bean pea yesterday. I've classified it in the database as a shelling pea rather than a soup pea. HSL describe it as having a nutty flavour reminiscent of broad beans so I'm interested to try it fresh as well as dried. The peas themselves are certainly huge. More pea sowing today, hopefully.
Happy sowing this season, everyone!
A fruit day according to the moon sowing calendar, so absolutely perfect for those early peas. Yes, Mr Bound's Pea Bean, to give it its full name, is one of the stars of the non sweat peas, great in stews as an alternative to dried, reconstituted beans, as mushy peas or hummus. Pea Bean, because its seeds are as large as a field bean, well nearly so. A nice tall variety.
Soup peas are really no different from shelling peas as they also have inedible pods, but there are subtle differences. The classic shelling pea is white flowered and has sweet tasting, juicy peas inside. What is also knows as 'garden peas', the pea type found in the frozen foods section of supermarkets with the Captain's logo. Kelvedon Wonder, Onward and Telephone spring to mind as varieties.
Soup peas are generally less sweet and more starchy. Still perfect to eat shelled as green peas, but not with that same sweetness that tempts the gardener to shell and nosh them raw, right there and then in the garden.
Hope all our seeds will spring into life readily and will grow into beautiful and productive plants before long. I wonder what it is about aubergines that makes them so difficult to germinate. I had failures too earlier this year and will be using the paper towel method for my next attempt. Did they get too wet? I wonder.
Thank you Jan, happy sowing and good germination for you also.
Thanks, Galina, for this interesting clarifying of the role of soup peas as not just for soup. It led to a train of thought in my mind about the relative sweetness of shelling peas. I suppose it would theoretically be possible to use the brix scale on shelled peas. As I'm rather keen on databases, probably to try to sort my otherwise often vague mind, I'm thinking I could subdivide my shelling pea description into sweet shelling pea and non-sweet shelling pea. But I suppose there are degrees in between.
And anyway, I'm getting rather over-geeky here! And of course the term soup pea is useful already for indicating non-sweet shelling pea.
For your 'inner geek', there is even a mangetout pea that is non sweet, called Biskopens gråärt with its interesting red seeds and edible pods.
Yes there are probably degrees of sweetness. However to what degree this also depends on sunshine hours during pod ripening, like the sweetness of fruit which is less in a lasting cloudy spell and higher in a really sunny spell, would also be interesting. Maybe even the stage at which the little peas inside are being harvested, ie shelled as petit pois equals sweeter than harvested as garden peas.
Most people use Biskopens as a dry pea, but it is really nice as a mangetout with already developed seeds inside. A bit like the pea equivalent of Appalachian beans. As our A4A seed circle donor, Ian Pearson, describes "Attractive picked as small pods and sliced diagonally in salads, showing off the baby red/pink peas within." https://seedsaverscircle.org/seed-circle/seed-parcel-2013-2/
I'm so glad the aubergines germinated for you JanG!
They are the hardest crop for me to germinate. :BangHead: Last year, I ended up getting rid of an entire half tray into a bag with used compost (to mulch etc). A few week later, they were growing in the bag!
I have started some onions (my first ever saved seeds and they germinated well) and aubergines/peppers/chilli peppers. I tried germinating them on kitchen paper in a tub on the propagator but it keeps drying out. I'm going to redo them...
It will be time for broad beans and peas soon. (and check what I could contribute to the circle this year)
I sent Jang a private message this morning, but I have also finally been successful with aubergine germination. Both my last batch sowing into little pots in the propagator and also the batch which I started in kitchen paper as advised by Jang. They can be so tricky.
For my second sowing I did not water the tops of the pots at all. They stand on capillary matting and get their moisture from below inside the heated propagator. I usually give all pots a gently watering in to get them going. Maybe aubergines really don't like that. But it works just fine for tomatoes, peppers and squash.
Interesting that the seeds in your discarded compost sprouted after all Juliev. So it may well be worth holding on to that first set of little aubergine pots in the propagator for a while longer, despite the second sowing, which was weeks later, having been successful. Thanks for the advice.
Quote from: galina on February 19, 2025, 09:19:01For your 'inner geek', there is even a mangetout pea that is non sweet, called Biskopens gråärt with its interesting red seeds and edible pods.
Yes there are probably degrees of sweetness. However to what degree this also depends on sunshine hours during pod ripening, like the sweetness of fruit which is less in a lasting cloudy spell and higher in a really sunny spell, would also be interesting. Maybe even the stage at which the little peas inside are being harvested, ie shelled as petit pois equals sweeter than harvested as garden peas.
Most people use Biskopens as a dry pea, but it is really nice as a mangetout with already developed seeds inside. A bit like the pea equivalent of Appalachian beans. As our A4A seed circle donor, Ian Pearson, describes "Attractive picked as small pods and sliced diagonally in salads, showing off the baby red/pink peas within." https://seedsaverscircle.org/seed-circle/seed-parcel-2013-2/
Thank you for these further thoughts on relative sweetness and the sunshine factor. Much to have in mind and observe here.
I was also very interested in your comments about Biskopens. I grew it years ago from seed from a rather unreliable seed swap and only used it as a dried pea. I love the possibility of making more of its red seeds by using it as a mangetout. I thought I had finished sowing peas for the moment but I think Biskopens gråärt, with its challenging accents, is beckoning as an addition to my plans!
Quote from: juliev on February 19, 2025, 13:27:42I'm so glad the aubergines germinated for you JanG!
They are the hardest crop for me to germinate. :BangHead: Last year, I ended up getting rid of an entire half tray into a bag with used compost (to mulch etc). A few week later, they were growing in the bag!
I haven't had too much trouble germinating aubergine seeds, compared with, say, peppers which can also seem a bit wayward. I'd assumed it was heat which is the determining factor but from what you say, you're using a propagator. But I'm delighted with the 100% germination from your Czech Early. But six plants is rather a lot to accommodate. Having too many aubergine plants is a new experience!
Quote from: juliev on February 19, 2025, 13:27:42I have started some onions (my first ever saved seeds and they germinated well) and aubergines/peppers/chilli peppers. I tried germinating them on kitchen paper in a tub on the propagator but it keeps drying out. I'm going to redo them...
It will be time for broad beans and peas soon. (and check what I could contribute to the circle this year)
Great to have your own onion seeds, especially as onion seed needs to be quite fresh. I've had some disappointing germination this year and have resown to get more.
I also like the damp kitchen towel method especially with seed which might be past it. I think if you have a really airtight plastic box you won't get the same drying out problems. Good luck with your resowing.
Broad beans for me are an early crop. I started mine last month. I guess I'm just impatient to get going but they are pretty hardy. I'm delighted that you have the seed circle in mind! It's a pity broad beans are somewhat promiscuous and, in my experience, it's not very easy to cover the flowers very effectively. I suppose the best answer is to be self-disciplined and grow only one variety but that's a tough discipline to take on!
You can't have too many aubergines Jang. Ever! Cooking small cubes with onion, slices of courgette and tomato plus oregano, thyme, then freezing in blocks,is a lovely addition to the winter kitchen. And it does not deteriorate in flavour from frozen compared to the fresh product. And uses up glut vegetables. You can add peppers too if you have too many. But it is the aubergine that gives it its body. Making space for six plants is definitely worth it.
I love your cooking suggestion. Does the cooked combination make a fairly wet mixture for freezing? I imagine the tomatoes cook down into a bit of a sauce but that's overcooking wouldn't be good.
You're right about the desirability of aubergines but of course they jockey for undercover space. And it leaves out of count the fact that I have a few other varieties on the go too. 🤪
Most of the aubergine/peppers/chillies were nice and plump so I sowed them in compost and back in the propagator. The varieties that had started to sprout were fried so I resowed those completely. Fingers crossed...
I tried to bag/cover some of the broad bean plants last year: utter fail for me... a mix of poor pod set, pests and diseases while the uncovered plants looked lush. I've decided to go with a population mix and grow them in clumps, separating them as much as I can (dark seeds, red/pink seeds, crimson flowers, maybe separate white and green seeds and the last group, free for all!). I like the diversity too much :toothy10:
re onion seeds: I'm so glad I no longer have to rely on bought seeds for certain crops! The number of onions, leeks and parsnips that never germinated...
Yes indeed. I had very little germination from one of my varieties from commercial seeds. The Zebrune large shallots, but they were a couple of years old, maybe that was the problem. The Ailsa Craig germinated fine. Not too brilliant germination from the shallots from seeds either, but at least we don't need many plants as they will get multiplied vegetatively in the main going forward. Great that you produced your own seeds Juliev with much better germination results. Hope the little seedlings will thrive.
Jang, not overcook no, but definintely soft lumpy and slightly liquid. We leave the tomato skins on for a bit of texture or fibre, but this is of course preference. It is all soft, but not completely fallen apart, with as you said, a nice bit of liquid from the tomatoes. I start by gently frying off the onions, aubergines, then sliced courgettes (which also releases moisture), then add cut up tomatoes or halved cherries and last any herbs and spices. Totally undemanding 'recipe' regarding relative quantities. The usual fast food containers with tight lids are excellent for freezing. Once they are frozen blocks, you can store them without the containers in freezer bags, if you like. The proper recipe is called Ratatouille, but it is very flexible. As is its final use. You can add a big handful of cooked beans for a substantial side dish or use it instead of pasta sauce.
Quote from: juliev on February 20, 2025, 07:41:09Most of the aubergine/peppers/chillies were nice and plump so I sowed them in compost and back in the propagator. The varieties that had started to sprout were fried so I resowed those completely. Fingers crossed...
I tried to bag/cover some of the broad bean plants last year: utter fail for me... a mix of poor pod set, pests and diseases while the uncovered plants looked lush. I've decided to go with a population mix and grow them in clumps, separating them as much as I can (dark seeds, red/pink seeds, crimson flowers, maybe separate white and green seeds and the last group, free for all!). I like the diversity too much :toothy10:
re onion seeds: I'm so glad I no longer have to rely on bought seeds for certain crops! The number of onions, leeks and parsnips that never germinated...
I've often saved leek seeds but for some reason haven't tended to let onions carry on to flowering. You've inspired me to have a go this next season.
Your broad bean bagging experiences sound much like mine. Another problem I've had is that the plant carries on growing so any covers I've carefully made, even resorting to a sewing machine, have turned out to lift from the ground. But yes, less healthy development under the covers is very disconcerting too.
I hope you get reassuring signs of life from your aubergine and pepper seeds any day now.
Our friends brought my circle seeds. What lovely treasures. Thank you everybody. What a special day. :sunny:
You've had a long wait but great that you've received them now. And thank you to your friends for keeping them safely for you.
Aubergines, peppers and chillies are up! :icon_cheers:
Jan, re onions, I left the plants in the ground last year and most of them are sprouting again (so are the leeks). I planted a random leek in a flower border years ago and it's flowered every year since. It's got me thinking... Could we grow them as perennial ornamental onions? and still get seeds for food production? Although now they are smaller and dividing, they are genetically still the same plants I selected for seeds, right?
That's very interesting. I have a patch of self-perpetuating leeks but they keep going with self-seeding. There are perennial leeks which keep dividing, perpetuating themselves and increasing that way. But were you suggesting that the same leek plant has been flowering each year. Or is it that you now have a self-sustaining patch of dividing leeks? I don't think most leeks are perennial in that way. Mostly they flower, produce seeds and die. Babington leeks and a leek bred by Telsing Andrews offered in UK by Backyard Larder (https://backyardlarder.co.uk/shop/perennial-leek-st-victor-x-oerprei/) are exceptions and are examples of perennial leeks. If yours are truly perennial you've been very fortunate perhaps. Do you remember what variety the original was?
All alliums, of course, have attractive flower heads and then seed heads. I can't see any reason why yours can't be enjoyed for their ornamental value as well as for seed.
The leek was probably a basic Musselburgh. No dividing/clumping/increasing like yours unfortunately, just a single shoot coming up in the Spring, followed by a flower. I let several varieties cross last year, some plants have disappeared completely but a good portion is sending a single shoot like my lone leek. I'm going to move them together to save seeds from them again. Exciting!
Thank you for introducing me to the Backyard Larder. There is a lot of information there (and a potential danger to my bank account...)
Hello everyone,
Can I share a dream project?
Seed Share Community Project.pdf
I am planning a practice seed swap at the end of the month (thank you Jan for your fantastic running of the seed circle, you are my Gold Standard!)
Any feedback would be really appreciated.
Best wishes
Julie
Quote from: juliev on March 01, 2025, 07:55:39The leek was probably a basic Musselburgh. No dividing/clumping/increasing like yours unfortunately, just a single shoot coming up in the Spring, followed by a flower. I let several varieties cross last year, some plants have disappeared completely but a good portion is sending a single shoot like my lone leek. I'm going to move them together to save seeds from them again. Exciting!
Thank you for introducing me to the Backyard Larder. There is a lot of information there (and a potential danger to my bank account...)
I think from what you said in your original message that the same lone leek(probably Musselburgh) has survived several seasons? As far as I know that would be most unusual. Does it die down and come back like a Babington would? I'm intrigued to know more.
Yes, the Backyard Larder is great for starters of perennial vegetables.
Quote from: juliev on March 01, 2025, 22:43:28Hello everyone,
Can I share a dream project?
Seed Share Community Project.pdf
I am planning a practice seed swap at the end of the month (thank you Jan for your fantastic running of the seed circle, you are my Gold Standard!)
Any feedback would be really appreciated.
Best wishes
Julie
Thanks for sharing your dream project, Julie. I think it's a very interesting and admirable proposal, and I know your experience with schools and community groups gives you a lot of insight into what would be of interest to such groups.
The project obviously has an interestingly different emphasis from the Seed Circle in that the Seed Circle concentrates on specific varieties and keeping them true, whereas the more mix-and-match basis of the community seed share in some ways requires a mental adjustment on the part of some of us who are more used to delighting in specific varieties with their own history etc!
My personal response is that I think this will be of great interest and use to community groups and I applaud it for that. It should encourage seed saving and that is wonderful. For me personally, I'd be delighted to do something interesting and useful with the excess bean, pea, tomato and possibly lettuce seeds I often have at the end of the season. I would like to keep an open mind as to whether I can develop an interest in growing and developing grexes. So, all in all, I'm up for the contributing element but less sure about whether I would request seeds. But above all I wish you the best of luck with this undertaking.
Coming to practicalities, I'd be delighted fairly immediately to contribute seeds of French beans - already mixed - and could probably put together a few more vegetable types. Do you want it to be a free for all donation in which anything goes - mixtures or single varieties - or do you want, for example, specific qualities marked such as early, robust, cold tolerant, tall, short?
Looking forward to hearing more and wishing you great success.
Your words of encouragement are greatly appreciated Jan, thank you!
I firmly have a foot in both camps. Growing single varieties for conservation and all the "geekiness" that comes with it really appeals to me. If it does well in my conditions and I can save good quality seeds then I will do so and keep it as a single variety. On the other hand, if it's a variety that's not reliable or I don't have enough garden space to save good seeds, mixing comes in handy. I can still have good quality seeds for that crop and even if I "lose" the original named variety, some of its genes will be shared in the mix. Carrots, onions, leeks, parsnips, radishes, squashes, brassicas, beetroots, corn etc are all exciting mixes for me that I would be struggling to save seeds for as single varieties. Crops that I thought were off limits are now part of my seed saving regulars and they are getting better every year.
Any seeds you are willing to share would be gratefully received! I try to group things so that they make sense both in the garden and the kitchen (eg, dwarf beans-fresh eating, dwarf beans-dry, brassica-kales/loose leaf, brassica-cabbages). But if they are already mixed together (all beans or peas together for example), then it's not much of a problem, especially as we're swapping seeds between seed savers/hobby breeders at this stage. I have several packets of seeds labelled "all mixed-sort out!".
original leek.jpg from last year.jpg
The original leek is on the left. The flower stalk dies down and in the Spring a new shoot emerges. It's been doing that for several years, always in the same spot, definitely not a self sown seedling.
On the right, some that have sprouted from last year's stalk. They are all different varieties (one has actually got two shoots coming from it!).
So, they are not supposed to come back? Do we call them zombie leeks? :laughing6:
I need to check at the allotment if any are sprouting back...
I still need to clean the seeds (still recovering from doing the onions...), but I should have plenty to share. If it's genetic, some of the offspring should have the same potential.
Quote from: juliev on March 02, 2025, 17:25:01Carrots, onions, leeks, parsnips, radishes, squashes, brassicas, beetroots, corn etc are all exciting mixes for me that I would be struggling to save seeds for as single varieties. Crops that I thought were off limits are now part of my seed saving regulars and they are getting better every year.
Any seeds you are willing to share would be gratefully received! I try to group things so that they make sense both in the garden and the kitchen (eg, dwarf beans-fresh eating, dwarf beans-dry, brassica-kales/loose leaf, brassica-cabbages). But if they are already mixed together (all beans or peas together for example), then it's not much of a problem, especially as we're swapping seeds between seed savers/hobby breeders at this stage. I have several packets of seeds labelled "all mixed-sort out!".
An interesting list of possible relaxation about crossing. Some random thoughts ...
I have had interbred squashes and they have always been fine in spite of warnings I've read that a cross might produce something fairly inedible.
Brassicas of course are very promiscuous and all tend to flower at around the same time so without some kind of management seeds might produce something of dubious food value perhaps.
I've just sown my own collected seeds of radishes without knowing which they came from so I'm interested to see how they turn out.
Corn has the additional problem of inbreeding depression without a sufficiently large population and some combinations of types producing tough kernels etc.
I can't see any problem with allowing the other crops you mention to intermingle. Being able to happily allow runner beans and broad beans to produce what they like would certainly be pleasantly freeing!
I suppose with crops which rarely cross, such as beans and tomatoes, a bag of mixed seed will produce a range of offspring which will be a different kind of resilience from the resilience resulting from crossed seed.
As is probably rather clear I'm intrigued by the idea of your project and still trying to get my head round its implications by thinking aloud - or whatever the typed version of thinking aloud is!
Quote from: juliev on March 02, 2025, 18:07:17original leek.jpg from last year.jpg
The original leek is on the left. The flower stalk dies down and in the Spring a new shoot emerges. It's been doing that for several years, always in the same spot, definitely not a self sown seedling.
On the right, some that have sprouted from last year's stalk. They are all different varieties (one has actually got two shoots coming from it!).
So, they are not supposed to come back? Do we call them zombie leeks? :laughing6:
I need to check at the allotment if any are sprouting back...
I still need to clean the seeds (still recovering from doing the onions...), but I should have plenty to share. If it's genetic, some of the offspring should have the same potential.
Thanks for the helpful photos. It looks to me as though your leeks are behaving quite like Babington leeks which die down and then produce new shoots form around last year's dead stem. Do your flower heads have bulbils at all? Babingtons produce bulbils at the expense of seeds so there is a difference there.
These leeks seem to have considerable potential. It definitely seems worth seeing what offspring come from the seeds they've produced.
Juliev, wish you the best of luck for your community seed project. Maybe a little more explanation might be needed to what groupings you are planning and why landrace. I notice you aren't using that term. Probably quite deliberately.
What you have is a multiplying leek. They have this tendency, some more some less. But if you have a reliable one, especially a type that always produces several leeks from the base, that is very desirable. Excellent, keep going with them. Just replant singly and select for this tendency. Maybe stop them from flowering eventually to force them a bit more. Have you seen this video?https://www.google.com/search?q=youtube+multiplier+leek&rlz=1C1AVNG_enGB689GB689&oq=youtube+multiplier+leek&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIGCAEQRRhA0gEJNjk4MmowajE1qAIIsAIB8QX4AoCys9-AnQ&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:9c1efbdb,vid:5OEqDpRwyBg,st:0
We had onion Minogue in the seed circle a while ago. This is really a mini leek rather than an onion, which is used like chives and it really multiplies from the base. Looks like you are 'training' your Musselburghs to become perennial leeks too.
Thank you Galina for the video link. There is one survivor at the allotment with 3 shoots! I'll definitely move all of them together and save seeds. Perennial/multiplying leek mix, here I come!
The mixes for the community project are not landraces as they are simply seeds that are sent in bulked together. For example, Jan's radish mix, my radish mix, a few pure heirloom radishes all mixed in. They create a supermix, but not a landrace. The genetic diversity in the mix could be the first step for people to develop their own landrace if they wish or just grow them out and enjoy a diverse crop. On top of all the benefits of growing mixes (simple to grow, resilient, varied harvest, relaxed seed saving...), it is also a lot easier logistically, only needing one bag/container per crop type.
The groupings are a work in progress as we all garden, harvest and cook differently so I am looking forward to discussing options with people taking part in the first few swaps.
As a bit of a purist (till now) in terms of seed-saving, there are one or two crops which I have for some time saved without worrying about varieties. Originally I tried out some different varieties of coriander, for bigger leaves, bigger seeds etc. Now I simply harvest coriander seeds and both cook with them and grow them on. Spinach is another crop I save generic seeds for and I no longer distinguish between flat leaved and curly parsley. So I suppose in those small ways it makes very good sense to abandon ruthless sorting.
I'm not sure in those cases whether I have a mixture or some kind of middling version. I guess it depends upon how prone to interbreeding the crop is.
In your community project would it be a good idea to specify some of the groupings which make sense either for growing or for cooking? In your previously attached summary you mention pea categories such as snap peas, soup peas, etc. Height seems to be another helpful grouping for both peas and beans. Habit of growth for tomatoes? Or do you prefer to let such categorisation evolve?
Oh I get it now Juliev. Sow one packet of radish, harvest a great variety of radishes and at different ripening times. Sow one packet of edible podded peas, get a variety of green, yellow, purple and possibly red podded peas, both mangetouts and snaps. If they save seeds from the radish mix, they will get a landrace, the peas not so much. It is like the Morton's lettuce mixes. Good luck for the project.
Yes indeed height is a very important category for gardeners Jan, as not everybody wants to deal with having to stake tall crops, especially for disabled or elderly gardeners in raised beds.
My multiplier leek. I should have put the camera on the ground like you have, but I think you can see the leek babies ok.
Having grown Babington leek for quite a few years now, I've never eaten it because I was waiting for it to bulk up. I took a bite of raw leaf yesterday and realised what a strong taste of garlic it has. I assume this is specific to Babington rather than other multiplier leeks.
I shall try cooking some today and see whether the strong taste remains.
What seems unusual perhaps about Juliev's leek is that it has evolved from an annual (biennial) leek like Musselburgh.
Yes indeed Jan, but it disappears on cooking (to my palette anyway, which isn't very sophisticated.
All leeks have this tendency more or less. With cultivated leeks rather less, with Minogue (which is technically a leek), rather more. The famous Welsh perennial leek also rather more. The perennial leek that Telsing Andrews bred is a cross of Oerprei (which readily multiplies from the base) and a winterhardy leek St Victor, in order to achieve a winter hardy multiplier aka perennial leek for her harsher Canadian winters. This is what I have.
https://permaseminka.cz/jedle-trvalky/97-vytrvaly-porek-modrozeleny-grex.html
PS sorry you have to click the translate button, but at the bottom of the page is a button for more information, that tells you everything about how this leek was bred.
PS2 Here is more information about Minogue Onions https://backyardlarder.co.uk/shop/minogue-onion/
PS3 More information about Oerprei https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lIYEDN0nT0
Thank you Galina for the photo of your multiplier leeks.
I've found my 2023 list: the leeks I planted were Bleu de Solaise, Porbella, Giant Winter, Bandit, Elefant, Musselburgh. I selected the best 2-3 of each variety to go to seed and planted them in mixed groups. So it looks like several of those have a potential to multiply and become perennial.
Interesting note about the taste of Babington leeks.
Oerprei looks like a small elephant garlic (which is closer to a leek than a garlic, if I remember well...)
As you both pointed out, the groupings for grow outs and distribution will need to be quite specific as they will be aimed at the "general public", schools, seed libraries etc.
ps: Galina, your edible podded pea mix would look amazing and totally unique! Imagine such a mix growing in school gardens!
It's a bit more complicated for the seed swap... This is aimed at seed savers/hobby breeders. Some of them keep things together, have unstable material etc. Yes, I would prefer to have everything in its correct category (indeterminate cherry tomato, indeterminate slicer tomato, bush bean for fresh eating, bush bean for drying etc). But it would be a shame not to accept something because it's mixed up. I'd rather keep it separate and list it as such. For example, some people keep all their peas together (all sizes and types). I wouldn't want to mix them with the distinct types but would happily grow them out to untangle them. I can then add them to their rightful categories. I know several people who would do the same, for certain crops and not others, depending of our own projects and interests. Labeling clearly will be crucial!
Jan, your coriander and spinach are prime examples of how we already save many seeds in a more relaxed way. We probably save a lot of flower seeds without worrying about crossing (aquilegia, foxgloves, nigella, poppies...). Yet, for vegetables, it just feels wrong, like we need special permission to relax or something terrible is going to happen. In reality, with a bit of education (to be aware of unwanted crosses) we can give easily save seeds for a wider range of crops and add some resilience to our seed saving practices.
Quote from: galina on March 07, 2025, 10:19:35Yes indeed Jan, but it disappears on cooking (to my palette anyway, which isn't very sophisticated.
All leeks have this tendency more or less. With cultivated leeks rather less, with Minogue (which is technically a leek), rather more. The famous Welsh perennial leek also rather more. The perennial leek that Telsing Andrews bred is a cross of Oerprei (which readily multiplies from the base) and a winterhardy leek St Victor, in order to achieve a winter hardy multiplier aka perennial leek for her harsher Canadian winters. This is what I have.
https://permaseminka.cz/jedle-trvalky/97-vytrvaly-porek-modrozeleny-grex.html
PS sorry you have to click the translate button, but at the bottom of the page is a button for more information, that tells you everything about how this leek was bred.
PS2 Here is more information about Minogue Onions https://backyardlarder.co.uk/shop/minogue-onion/
PS3 More information about Oerprei https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lIYEDN0nT0
Thank you for the links, Galina. I have seen/read the material before but good to be reminded and to have such material listed in one place.
Having cooked some Babington yesterday evening, I'd say the stronger taste persists a little and makes for an appealing result. Even the biggest are smaller than most leeks so you need a good sized patch to provide many good helpings for two.
Quote from: juliev on March 07, 2025, 10:42:02Jan, your coriander and spinach are prime examples of how we already save many seeds in a more relaxed way. We probably save a lot of flower seeds without worrying about crossing (aquilegia, foxgloves, nigella, poppies...). Yet, for vegetables, it just feels wrong, like we need special permission to relax or something terrible is going to happen. In reality, with a bit of education (to be aware of unwanted crosses) we can give easily save seeds for a wider range of crops and add some resilience to our seed saving practices.
My seed saving tends more towards the purist end but with exceptions. I get a great deal of enjoyment out of the whole heritage thing, being aware of the histories of varieties, being part of conserving some, enjoying the diversity but in a discrete way.
I can envisage, though, the two separate activities, interests and endeavours going on side by side with some crops managed for a genetically diverse, robust mix with particular criteria in mind, and other crops managed for the pleasure of collecting and delighting in more expected outcomes.
I don't think I've described two different pleasures clearly but I'm still thinking through what they may be! I was responding to the idea that letting things cross can feel 'wrong' but I do recognise that worrying about, say, broad bean or runner bean crossing is something that hangs over me a little, and probably others.
Just researching how to get the tree peony started. Is it really as lengthy and difficult as this? Very mindful that after the more than six months to germination, there will be little time left to grow them before winter. Are these instructions valid (from Google AI). Should I start much later in the year, to give the seedlings a better growing chance next year?
Hope somebody can give us the correct advice.
To grow tree peonies from seed, you can start the seeds in a warm place, then move them to a cooler location. After the seedlings have developed roots, you can pot them up and grow them on.
Steps
Put seeds in a bag with slightly damp vermiculite or compost
Place the bag in a warm place (around 70°F) for 3 months
Move the bag to a cooler location (around 40°F) for 10–12 weeks
When shoots appear, remove the seeds from the bag and pot them up
Grow the seedlings on in a cool place
Gradually move the seedlings outside
Plant the seedlings in well-drained soil in a sunny or semi-shaded location
Thanks
In Rushden where I had two large patches of BL, I tended to cut off the green tops for eating and only occasionally harvest them as whole leeks. I harvested them with secateurs effectively. Then cut off the tough leaf tips and cook the mostly green foliage, leaving the white 'stumps' to regrow, which they readily did. It is however best to leave a couple of big stems unharvested, because those will flower and make top bulbils.
BL also has side bulblets hanging off from the base, which mostly break off when the whole plant is pulled, similar to elephant garlic, but these germinate sporadically and sometimes only a year or two later. Glad you liked the taste, yes definitely stronger than the 'white' leek that comes from a long blanched stem in the ground, but not particularly garlicky, when cooked.
Thanks Galina, I was wondering if they would be worth harvesting as whole leeks. Using them as leek greens make a lot more sense!
While we are discussing alliums, could I ask about Welsh onions/allium fistulosum?
I am assuming they are grown as perennials. How do you prevent different forms from crossing if you want to save seeds? Do you simply remove flower shoots (it seems too simple... am I missing something?)?
I'm about to sow my peas. They are a few varieties that I am not sure I have categorised correctly. (and I trust you more than seed catalogues :tongue3: )
Sankia (seed circle, shared 2024) shelling pea?
Crown Pea Salmon flowered and Rosa Krone. I grew Rosa Krone last year as a shelling pea, but I'd be tempted to grow it as a dry/soup pea
Opal Creek, yellow sugar snap? It didn't look/have the texture of the other sugar snaps I grew last year
Shiraz, purple mangetout. We've tried several time, we find it awful...
Blawschoker, purple mangetout. In the catalogue description, it's often said "if eaten very young"...