Advice needed re weedkiller

[Digeroo]

I do hate weedkiller, but my plot was covered in nettles and dead nettles.  Have been ill so thing got very badly out of hand.   Had hoped for some pigs but none available, so had to resort to the dreaded glyphosate.

Sprayed but not much has died.  Grass including couch fantastic, but the nettles and particularly the dead nettles not dieing.  The growing points have gone yellow but not much else happened.  Do you think if I dig it over that they will come back from the roots.   I have sprayed twice already. 

How long after I spray do I have to wait before things do not regrow from the roots?   If the growing point has gone yellow is that long enough?

Does anyone know how to kill wood avens it seems totally unphased by weedkiller?

[Digeroo]

[johhnyco15]

try the deep root type of weedkiller it may work

[Tiny Clanger]

Galup 490 can shift Japanese knotweed. Galup 360 or Clinic Ace should do the job. Mix 15ml of product (no more than 20ml) to 1 litre of water in pump sprayer. I us a back pack srayer, but a 5 litre one can do as well from wilko, B&M etc. Choose a dry day and allow 2 - 3 weeks for the stuff to do its job.

This sorted out the mess of a new plot for me

[Pescador]

When did you spray? The yellowing of the growing points will happen in a few days, but the dye-back will take up to a couple of weeks. If you applied at the correct concentration, I would be very surprised if it doesn't work.
If you do have to spray again make sure it's a still day and keep the pressure low, to avoid drift.

[ancellsfarmer]

What will be your next move?
If its to be cultivated for next season, give them 10 days and mow /strim over. Cover with cardboard and mulch(2" of something,ideally compost or manure, or topsoil. Dig out anything that grows through, replacing a layer of card and mulch.Next spring, plant out into it. Raise plants in modules and mulch/weed as required. This regime will work. Did it 3 years ago on sandy soil and this year on clay.I
If its waste area, let the top dry and burn off (carefully!!) and then keep it weeded, or plant something useful. (Comfrey?, Horseradish, courgettes)
For more details see
www.charlesdowling.co.uk
I was fortunate in visiting his "plot" two weeks ago and am now very keenly spreading the word. It works.It works for him, it works for me, and I think it would work for you.
It could save you much time and effort,(which you will need to use making, begging or stealing green waste to enlarge your compost heap)

[InfraDig]

Should be charlesdowding .

[Digeroo]

Have tried the no dig method and the result is the stinging nettles and dead nettles.  So now decided to go back to digging.  Some of the nettles roots are three metres long.   What ever Charles Dowding does I do not believe it includes doing more or less nothing for six months.  Black plastic has only slightly deterred them.  I am sure he does not start with a batch a metre deep in nettles.  He would get some pigs in to sort it out first.  Had hoped for the pigs but none available.

The dreaded weedkiller has already been used.    Some of the dead nettles have received three doses over several months and still not dead though they are looking very sick.  The dose has reduced everything else to a crisp so presume it was correct. 

Having watched the clouds of weedkiller from a neighbour spraying I have been very careful to choose very still mornings.  Have managed to avoid my precious blackcurrants.

If the tips have gone yellow will the roots already be dieing too if I get rid of the top growth and dig it over.  I really want to dig most of the plot over before it gets too cold.  I few patches seem to have survived unscathed presume they were protected when I sprayed before.

[Tee Gee]

Have you checked your soil pH?

It might be a bit on the acid side a fair drop  of lime might make it less vigorous then the weed killer can kick in, although I prefer to dig them out!

[Obelixx]

It takes 2 weeks for the systemic stuff to be passed down to the roots and do its stuff and weeds like nettles and bindweed and thistles may need several doses.

Have you tried burning them with a mini flame thrower designed for weeds?

I would fork it over and remove every bit of root you see then wait a while for any regrowth and burn or hoe it off.   That way at least you can get any winter planting done or just cover the freshly turned soil with a layer of cardboard to suppress weeds over the winter till you're ready for sowing and planting in spring.

[Digeroo]

Acid?  TeeGee not a chance!!!   The well water on site has so much lime in it you can almost  stand a spoon up in it.   

I have now reduced more than half my allotment to ground level using a digging hoe and the pile of nettles etc is up to my nose. 

But there are a few batches already regrowing, and I have dosed them again.  But now want to dig the whole area through so I can start from scratch leaving only the rhubarb and the fruit.

 

[hippydave]

If applied correctly using a 360 glyphosate product and not just ready mixed hand spray weedol type stuff it will see of nettles in around 3/4 weeks.
For min dose use 160ml in 10ltr of water for max does use 240ml in 10 ltr water and these doses will treat 400 sq mtr.
The plants have to be in full growth and not stressed or checked by drought.
Please do not spray on a still day as this can cause the spray to hang in the air and then be blown on to non target plants the best condition is a slight breeze felt on the face and light rustling of leafs on trees. keep the pressure low and the nozzle low so as not to make a mist but create larger droplets that will not drift.
If you use the glyphosate 490  make sure it well mixed as its quite thick and could just sink to the bottom of the sprayer, but this will kill everything it touches and is rain fast in 1 hour.
The glyphosate weedkillers are professional products and should be applied carefully.

[Vinlander]

Ammonium Sulphamate is a fertiliser for microbes (sold as a compost accelerator) made with a twist.

When it is fresh it is a systemic poison for plants but it can only change into a plant fertiliser - it's reliable because it is such a simple molecule, and any kind of damage turns it into fertiliser - this damage is inevitable in any ecosystem and the half-life is 2 weeks so it only lasts 4-5 weeks (double that for planting seedlings) and unless you dump it in a river it will only travel a few feet in that time.

It is expensive, but less so in quantities over 2kg, and it will last for years in a sealed container.

20g/Litre as a soil soak will kill all top growth and will kill most roots too - if there's re-growth I'd double and try again. The highest recommended concentration is 10x that - but they do want to sell the stuff after all.

In my experience a cup-full of crystals around a 150mm trunk will kill the tree stone dead, one shot, one tree. Absolutely essential for removing lilacs, ash, hazel growing near trees you want to keep - especially if you want to eat their fruit. Safe at 2m unless the pest tree is uphill of them - I'd risk it even nearer, since there's no other sensible choice short of expert use of explosives (that's not me).

It has never failed a safety test, it is simply on hold (as the herbicide Root-Out) until the latest round of re-tests are completed - this is an expensive process and the manufacturer has a much higher profit margin on its other herbicides so it might not bother.

Cheers.

[lezelle]

Hi Ya, Vinlander, Glad to see your reply on Ammonium Sulphamate. I have some as compost accelerator and know someone who has used it to kill marestail. I have been looking for the dosage rate and was surprised how high they were. I did read somewhere that the dosage you mention per litre is a 1/10th of the sellers advised dosage. So I can't see why we can't use it as you say it breaks down in the ground else it would not be safe in compost. I have never used it but your advise has made me think as I do use glysophate but don't like to use chemicals if possible. Do you spray the soil and the plants or just aim for the soil? Very good and quite  by chance the answer I have been looking for. Cheers

[ancellsfarmer]

Whats the difference?
Well glysophate is tested and approved for use as directed but ammonium sulphamate is neither tested nor approved for application as you describe.
http://sitem.herts.ac.uk/aeru/ppdb/en/Reports/35.htm
Would you take the "risk", of damage, claims or injury without the defence of approved substance?

[lezelle]

Hi Ya, Testing aside AS seems to be safer than glysophate, the manufacturer gives out a safety data sheet which explains all the ups and downs and if people do not read said sheets the more fool them. They also supply information on how to use as weed killer much to my surprise, with a warning they do not sell it for such purposes. It has been used as a weed killer for years and on breakdown adds nitrogen to the soil. I am not advocating the use its down to the individual to decide. If I use glysophate I put up a sign saying it has been applied. Now if some one chooses to ignore this and come on the area uninvited its their problem not mine as I have taken more the adequate precautions to advise and if I am present explain. I work with different chemicals and do treat them with respect as I have seen the damage and discomfort they can cause. This is why I am very cautious using any of them and would rather not. That said I did suffer an irritating soreness from my plot after I picked parsnip and the leaves gave some thing that really burned. Should of worn gloves to lift the parsnip? how many would think it. Yet we are all aware of plants that are detrimental to our well being. Still good to get others ideas. Happy Gardening.

[galina]

That said I did suffer an irritating soreness from my plot after I picked parsnip and the leaves gave some thing that really burned. Should of worn gloves to lift the parsnip? how many would think it. Yet we are all aware of plants that are detrimental to our well being. Still good to get others ideas. Happy Gardening.

Sorry about that Lezelle.  Actually it isn't parsnip juice on its own (or fig juice and several others too), it is what sun light does afterwards that gives the burns, which can be quite serious and leave scars.  Bet it was a sunny day this happened.  Been there, done it, got the scars   

[lezelle]

Hi Ya, I believe it was sunny that day, I have heard of others having the same problem but that was after I did it and tried to find out why. Still I live and learn all the time. Hope you are well Galina.

[Vinlander]

Whats the difference?
Well glysophate is tested and approved for use as directed but ammonium sulphamate is neither tested nor approved for application as you describe.
http://sitem.herts.ac.uk/aeru/ppdb/en/Reports/35.htm
Would you take the "risk", of damage, claims or injury without the defence of approved substance?

Glysophate isn't the worst herbicide ever but it is suspect and a ban is expected if only to stop amateurs using it until it is banned properly. It is a complex new molecule never seen in nature C3H8NO5P or HOOCCH2NHCH2PO(OH)2 so for me that's one strike. It is a covalent organophosphorus molecule (that family contains some of the most horrific substances ever made - look it up) - for me that's two strikes. It is credibly suspect on the one hand and is a massively profitable industry on the other (not to mention thousands of jobs) - there's no way I'm going to trust any regulatory organisation against that kind of lobbying clout - it's perfect conditions for yet another FIFA affect - for me that's the third strike.

Ammonium Sulphamate is an ionic molecule - that means the entirely friendly ammonium part NH4 is going to operate on its own and the suphamate OSO2NH2 is the only twisted bit - but it's a combination of two predictable groups SO3 and NH2. The difference in complexity between this and glysophate is clear to see and it should (and has been proved to) mean that it is much more predictable.

I'd compare this question quite closely to why I prefer to cross the road when the nearest car is 100m+ away rather than cross (more legally) on a red light AND green man while cars are approaching within 10 or 20m.

It's because I'd rather be 'threatened' by something that actually isn't there than by a driver that has chosen to break the rules (or had a heart attack, or is fighting failed brakes). Give me the car that isn't there every time.

Cheers.

[squeezyjohn]

Absolutely Vinlander ... perfectly put!

The ban on Ammonium Sulphamate is very clearly borne out of the "bad part" of the EU ... regulation driven by huge companies lobbying the parliament to get the outcomes which directly benefits their bank balances!  Sadly that is only a small part of what the EU represents and it's benefits definitely outweigh the things like this it does badly - nevertheless it is what people focus on because it directly affects them.

I didn't know that Sulphamate was a weedkiller at all ... and I will definitely use it in preference to glyphosate from now on ... I hated using that stuff ... I'm sure it will prove quite dangerous in the fullness of time and I hate to see companies actively avoiding proper testing for profit and seeing the governments let them get away with it.

[Digeroo]

Once plant has completely died and gone crispy but only one.  I have decided to get rid of everything else.  So far only one patch of dead nettles has regrown and a small patch of couch so 98% appears to be successful.  I had decided that it will be easier to re-spray small patches next spring if they regrow rather than wait now for death.
I cannot believe the length of the nettle roots, and I know there were not all there last year because I grew brassicas.   
Also if some of those red runners regrow it will be easier to simply dig them out if I have dug through now.
No dig - no way.
Need to do the digging now before it gets too cold.  The geese are gathering in huge numbers, the wind will turn s soon and bring the cold down from the north soon and send them on their way south.